The urge to surge
 

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Would you rather pay $10 for gas, or lose the lives of a few men? Thought so. The US is there for the oil, and by extension for you and me. Unless you heat your house with wood or coal and drive with WVO, you and your life style are to blame for this. Ugly as it is, that's the truth.

Some truth to that but the bigger question for me is will this operation eventually cause prices to go even higher? If hostilities were to continue to ratchet up over the years, what is the liklihood that ever greater pipeline and even supertanker sabotage/destruction will take place?

We controlled Iranian oil from '53 to '79 and the jury's out on whether it was a good investment.

The way I see it, oil is only part of it. According to reports, Israel is the primary beneficiary of that, besides being part of the political influx on the situation.

Oil I can see. How is Israel benefiting from it one way or the other?

Israel is secondary or tertiary. The primary beneficiaries are Kuwait, KSA, & the Gulf states who are no longer under any threat from Saddam.

How is it even that? Unless you might think that the heat from the conflict doesn't put Israel in good light but I am not sure how. Not saying it is not true just don't even know how Israel is even involved.

Saddam provided safe haven, money, training, and arms to terrorists. Israel was the prime focus of those terrorists. Saddam also used those terrorists as weapons of intimidation against the oil states.

By removing Saddam, it strengthened the oil states and Israel against the Syrian & Iranian-backed Hizbollah (sharing common Shiite beliefs) and emasculated the Iraqi support (and blackmail of oil states) Sunni supported Hamas and PLO.

This also strengthened secularist Lebanon vis a vis the Shiite-Syrian alliance. It also strengthened Jordan against the Palestinians.

B

I would rather pay $10 per gallon. I heat my house with fuel oil just like most of the northeast US. Maybe if prices really went up, we would look for alternatives to oil and possibly even think about conserving a bit. IIRC, keep in mind that we are 5% of the world's population, and consume 25% of the world's energy. Not a whole lot of conservation going on.

Keep in mind that we use most of our energy heating and cooling our buildings, not propelling our cars and trucks. So if we could focus on more efficient buildings, maybe we could make some real gains.

Europe already pays around 5.26 Euros per gallon for gasoline. Maybe that is why they have smaller, more fuel efficient cars.

Lets not talk about fuel only. Lets also ask about all the other stuff that is oil tainted. Plastics, for example. Asphalt is another. The list goes on.

Good point. I have seen all building materials go up but especially vinyl siding and asphalt roof shingles. Both have lots of petroleum in them. I would still rather pay more then lose lives. Paying more is also bound to bring more conservation into play. It is hardly discussed in the current US energy policy.

That is only if you are talking US. What about other parties that we depend on? If they have problems, how long before you have those problems? It took a few months for a black monday problem in the stock exchange to cause a problem in asia.

Well, it is easy to talk conservation and what not when you are in this state. The question is this. If I put you and your family back to the 1900s. Before oil tainted the world. How long before you would decide to fight? Medicines also are oil tainted and so is everything else from a ear of corn to the greatest scientific invention. Food will also go up astronomically. Think that won't affect many other things? You earning $2000 a month today might feed your family. In those terms with gas at $10, how much conservation do you think you can achieve before your family goes without? What if you cannot afford drugs that save your kids. How long would you watch them suffer before you chuck in conservation and pick up a rifle? This is all only assuming that things we depend on in the world are not affected and it is only the pricing. Sometimes, money won't even be an issue. You cannot buy it if it is not there. Yes, you would rather pay more. Sure. What if you CANNOT pay more either because you cannot earn more or that the item is not advailable for sale? BTW, if that happens, you sure you will have a job to earn money to pay more? I saw a pic of life around the end of the war in Germany, they showed a barrow full of money and speculated it might get you a loaf of bread.

Just a thought. I see that comparison floating around a lot. Like BCs numbers, they are impressive but very questionable, IMO. BC used to say that his car was more efficient than 75% of the vehicles on the road. While this is true, the question of the validity of the number remains. With what process did they do this comparison with? For instance, if I park my SUV that gets 15 mpg in a truck stop at midnight where only truckers are there, my 15 mpg will seem like a hell of a lot. Now, if I work from home, my expenses are going to be way less than if I rented an office, bought furniture, lights, heating, etc, etc. Would it be fair to compare it with another company that rents a small office? They are money out even before they sell anything. So when you look at it, I run a more efficient operation than they do. The US is an industrialized country. As such it will consume more resources than an agrarian based country. I would be interested to see how much we consume compared to other countries with similar output.

With what will you build this efficient home with?

Industrial agriculture is fueled by petroleum. If the price of oil goes up XXX then the price to produce food will go-up proportionately. Same with transportation. A few years ago fuel was in the $30/bbl range. With India & China entering the 20th century and with the worldwide unrest especially in and around oil producing states, market and speculation forces have combined to effect a 40% increase in petroleum costs.

Fortunately, the yearly increase in productivity (and the downward pressure on wages due to international competition and illegal immigration) in the USA has largely compensated for the petroleum price increase. Unfortunately, productivity will not increase in perpetuity. Another large boost in petroleum prices would likely put us into an economic turmoil like when Nixon froze prices -- with the attendant shortages. And that started-up that awful inflationary spiral that reached its maximum under Carter.

One good thing about inflation is that paying debts with inflated money is cheap. The downside is that wages and salaries lose ground -- it's a hidden taxation.

I lived in a South American country where inflation was so great that exchange and interest rates changed several times in a day. I was getting paid in dollars so I did great! Pensioners in that country had a terrible time.

B