http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/01/08/fascism/index.html

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This is going to be another "mudslingin' thread". But what the heck...

I copied this from the text:
You're right, "fascism" or "fascist" is a terribly loaded word, and it evokes a historical period, primarily that of the Nazis, and to a lesser extent Mussolini. But fascism as an ideology has generic qualities…Does this mean that this is Nazi Germany? No. Does this mean that this is Mussolini's Italy? No. Does this mean that this is a deeply anti-democratic movement that would like to impose a totalitarian system? Yes.
What it means and what the majority of common popul doesn't get, 'Fascism" is a generic term.
We're being fooled by comparison of Hitler's Third Reich or Mussolini's Italy. We're being told, that's what is fascism.
But what we're not being told is that these are only 2 examples of it and fascism can occure in many different forms, shapes and colors.
References of Fascism are not a black or braun shirt.

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The difference between the 1930s and now is that we had powerful progressive forces through the labor unions, through an independent and vigorous press. I forget the figure but something like 80 percent of the media is controlled by seven corporations, something horrible like that. Television is just bankrupt. I worry that we don't have the organized forces within American society to protect our democracy in the way that we did in the 1930s.

I copied this paragraph as well. It's Fascism's main tool.

Media-Propaganda or Propaganda-Media.The usual effect is, you won't know it, until it's too late.

It's frigthening to know, that 80 percent of the media, which includes printed press, radio, TV, movie industry, is controlled by 7 corporations.
And by taking a closer look at those corporations a certain understanding is unavoidable.

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Humpty-dumpty word.

B

Which word is humpty and what do you mean by that?

I found the article did an excellent job of articulating vague feelings that I have been having about the religeous right.

It all goes right along with the Jim Jones movement. He was the fellow who took his flock from Indianapolis to Guyana and then had them all drink poisoned kool aide, men women and chlldren.

Some Messiah.

Pretty scarey.

Several of my children are attending churches which i feel may be in this sphere. I am troubled by it but don't know what to do about it.

Thanks for posting the article. It is serious food for thought.

BTW Mrs. W spotted Dobson for what he is 20 years ago when I saw him as just a nice fellow talking about family values.

Tom w

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

There is a new documentary on Jim Jones. Saw it in the theatre in December but it is an American Experience production so it should be appearing on PBS. (It may already have appeared there). First rate film although it doesn't make any explicit attempt to draw the parallel between Jones and Fascism.
I found Hedges earlier book, 'War is a Force that gives us Meaning' to be a compelling and disturbing read.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
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1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Humpty-Dumpty was a character in Lewis Carroll's, "Through the Looking Glass".

Here is a dialogue between Humpty-Dumpty and Alice.

Bot

-----------------------------------------------------

`Don't stand there chattering to yourself like that,' Humpty Dumpty said, looking at her for the first time,' but tell me your name and your business.'

`My name is Alice, but -- '

`It's a stupid name enough!' Humpty Dumpty interrupted impatiently. `What does it mean?'

`must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully.

`Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a sort laugh: `my name means the shape I am -- and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like your, you might be any shape, almost.'

`Why do you sit out here all alone?' said Alice, not wishing to begin an argument.

`Why, because there's nobody with me!' cried Humpty Dumpty. `Did you think I didn't know the answer to that? Ask another.'

------------ Then somewhat later ----------

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.'

Man, I don't know where I am on this topic.
Theologically, I probably agree on most points. But as a result of believing that man was created in the image of God, I see each person as having value and worth--not dependent on their theology, but simply as image-bearers of God. It is the duty of each Christian to explain, as well as they can, to the people with whom they interact, the truths and implications of Christianity. But it up to the individual to choose, to believe, or not.

I would agree that the basic tennants to Law as given in the Bible are good guidance for all civil law. Obviously, Old Testament, ceremonial laws are not universal; but Do Not Murder, Do Not Lie, Do not Steal, etc and " Love your neighbor as yourself" are a pretty good starting point for any society. How can anyone object to them? Keeping the Sabath is, in my view, outside the purvue of civil government.
I don't see how education can be neutral. Either everything flows from a universe created by an orderly God, or we are the product of random chance. I do not see much middle ground. If you want to teach ethics in a moral vacuum, you must end up with moral relativism. The problem I have with the way I see Creationism taught is that it is often used simply as a tool for Christian evangelism. ( Not that I think that in itself is bad--but I object to the deception.) I think there is a way of presenting Creationism and Dawinism in an objective manner--I just haven't seen anyone do it.

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A key issue in understanding fascism in my view is whether the State exists to serve the individual or the individual exists to serve the State. Since the State and Religion are one according to the Reconstructionists/Dominionists and we are created to serve God (as opposed to God being created to serve us), the individual must serve the State.
There is no theoretical space within their point of view for free individuals to make free choices to organize themselves using principles that seem reasonable to them. They are radical Augustinians who believe in original sin which requires that human reason be rejected in favor of divine authority since human reason is sinful.

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That does not differ from pure communism.

Indeed. When you come down to it there is very little difference between pure facism and pure communism for the average shmuck stuck at the bottom of the dungheap.

- Peter.

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It depends on whose communism is being discussed. Marx himself claimed the State would wither away so it would become impossible for the individual to serve the State if it disappeared. Stalinism on the other hand may have held that view. Insofar as it did, it's indistinguishable from fascism.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Previously:

Originally Posted by kerry edwards
A key issue in understanding fascism in my view is whether the State exists to serve the individual or the individual exists to serve the State.

--------------

It seems to me that a pure commune-ism is faced with exactly that same duality. In the ultimate form, the question is meaningless.

L'etat ce'st moi.

Bot

I agree.

You are right there too.

[QUOTE]If you want to teach ethics in a moral vacuum, you must end up with moral relativism.

The problem with fundamentalists of any religion is their bone headed contention that absent their religion you have only a moral vacume. This is nonsense. There have been plenty of other religions thruout history, and are currently a number of different ones still that impart morality not much different than the basic laws you enumerated in your post. The problem with godnuts of any religion is the complete inability to co-exist with any other philosopy and the resultant strife that ensues.

Therewith I disagree. Creationism is just religion, Darwinism, or rather the theory of evolution is science and never the twain shall meet, despite the best attempts of the godnuts to pretend they are equivalent.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

I think Rushdoony is mistaken on some issues but correct on others. For instance, much of education, while not neutral on questions of truth and falsity has very little implication for religion or theology. Math is a good example. It is just stupid to have to call Euclid a Christian in order to account for the truth and usefuleness of geometry.
However, Rushdoony is correct that education in a democracy is a direct threat to his philosophy and theology. For instance, in a democractic discussion of ethical questions such as abortion, the death penalty, homosexuality etc, the humanist and secularist must be given equal voice with the Reconstructionist. Since democracy values the wills and minds of everyone, there is no justification for excluding sinners from the discussion, nor from lawmaking.

One might think that Rushdoony would be happy with this open discussion because the truth and rationality of his own religious views would prevail in an open discussion. But he doesn't think this. There is no rational evidence, choice, or proof of the existence of God, or the superiority of Rushdoony's religion. Knowledge of these things is only found by submission of one's will to God, and not by an act of unaided reason. Submission to divine authority precedes knowledge of divine truth. To put it another way, his political fascism is based on an intellectual fascism. (He follows a strange and deviant form of Christian Apologetics rooted in the philosopher, Cornelius Van Till, (and the dutchman, Herman Doeyweerd sp?) called Presuppositionalism)
The system is built from top to bottom on submission to divine authority. There is no access to intellectual or political goods except thru the expressed will of God as found in the Bible to which we must all submit. People who have not done so, have no standing in the system.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13