A few quotes from George Orwell... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BENZ-LGB · #1 07-14-2007, 03:03 AM

On the subject of pacifism:

" Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me. "

On the subject of sports:

" Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealousy, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words: it is war minus the shooting. "

On the subject of rough men:

" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. "

On the subject of dictatorships:

" Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. "

On the subject of liberals:

" Liberal: a power worshipper without power. "

Enjoy!

LaRondo · #2 07-14-2007, 05:47 AM

Why not extent the list of Orwell quotations:

"All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting."

"As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents."

"War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it."

LaRondo · #3 07-14-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

On the subject of pacifism:

" Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me.

Wildly taken out of context, one needs to know the background of the dialog from which this paragraph is excerted.
Thus creating an unwanted effect of leaving the writer with a bitter taste of being confused ....

Here is an excerpt of D.S. Savages' letter written in 1942 (Germany was about to attack Britain) to which Orwell responded:

It is fashionable nowadays to equate Fascism with Germany...Fascism is not a force confined to any one nation. We can just as soon get it here as anywhere else. The characteristic markings of Fascism are: curtailment of individual and minority liberties; abolition of private life and private values and substitution of state life and public values (patriotism); external imposition of discipline (militarism); prevelance of mass-values and mass-mentality; falsification of intellectual activity under State pressure. These are all tendancies of present-day Britain. The pacifist opposes every one of these, and might therefore be called the only genuine opponent of Fascism.

Don't let us be misled by names. Fascism is quite capable of calling itself democracy or even Socialism. It's the reality under the name that matters. War demands totalitariamn organization of society...Germans call it National Socialism. We call it democracy. The result is the same...

The corruption and hollowness revealed in the prosecution of this war are too contemptible for words. Certainly I will accept my share of responsibility for them, but I wont fight in a war to extend that corruption and hollowness...

Needless to say, we have no love for Fascism, and our entire attitude is one of personal resistance to all forms of Fasicsm, as they impinge upon us in concrete form....

t walgamuth · #4 07-14-2007, 08:17 AM

Thanks Guido.

I was thinking the original quote was from that era.

I also was wondering if Ernesto was trying to apply it to the present?

Tom W

Ara T. · #5 07-14-2007, 08:47 AM

He seemed like an intelligent dude. Never read 1984. I think we may have watched the film sometime in high school but I was probably asleep unfortunately.

BENZ-LGB · #6 07-14-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Why not extent the list of Orwell quotations:

I believe that the word that you are searching for is "extend." But then again, what do I know? I am just an immigrant to this wonderful country and English is only my second language.

The list was not meant to be an exhaustive, all-inclusive, listing of every possible single piece of writing by Orwell. Quotes from famous people (like quotes from the Bible) are like stats, they can be used to prove just about anything. Orwell was ferociously anti-communist and anti-dictatorship. For that, I deeply admire the man. Having lived in the bloody clutches of communism I fully understand what he was writing about. Living in a communist country was, to use the current vernacular, "a *****." It does, however, widens one's perspective. There is no substitute for real-life experience, right Guido?

Orwell's books are banned in Cuba but not here. That, by itself, speaks volumes about the man's beliefs and endears him to all freedom loving people.

Incidentally, I always fully expect members of the peanut gallery here to chime in with their own twist (not spin) on things. Your two posts prove that I am correct in my assessment regarding the overall consistency of people's behavior.

I am never disappointed by people's behavior in this regard because as Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."

We live in a generation fully populated by people who can't see much farther than the tip of their noses.

Or as Orwell wrote:

" To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle. "

But then again:

" The great enemy of clear language is insincerity "

As my abuelita used to tell me:

Si te cabe el guante, pontelo!

Have a WONDERFUL weekend you all, I am off to an overnight camping trip.

BENZ-LGB · #7 07-14-2007, 10:07 AM

Incidentally, the "here" that Orwell wrote about in the quote attributed to him was Englad and not the U.S.

Orwell began his political life as a leftitst. He fought in the Spanish Civil War on the side of the Republicans (who were armed and supported by Russia).

The Spanish Civil War, however, was a turnig point in his life. He then realized the full extent of communism's evil (as well as the full extent of facism's evil).

His books 1984 and Animal Farm were clearly anti-Stalin.

And yes, Orwell was opposed to the establishment of Israel. In a way, he was able to predict the kind of conflict that the establishment of Israel would eventually lead to. But he was also a fierce defender of Jews and poked "fun" at anti-semites in 1984.

OK, I really have to go now. Enjoy!

t walgamuth · #8 07-14-2007, 11:55 AM

Hey, I am astounded at the size of your mind too....
but your ego makes up for any shortfall there, right?

I agree on the evils of communism.

Did you intend to apply the quote about war to the present or not?

Tom W

LaRondo · #9 07-15-2007, 12:10 AM

The 'pacifism = objectively pro-fascism' quote is to be taken with caution, as Orwell directed it toward his former leftist fellas, as they, even in the face of a possible German invasion, would continue to call Englands efforts to mobilize, false propaganda.
Here is the full letter to which Orwell objected, which makes Orwell's postion more understandable:

http://antichomsky.blogspot.com/2004/07/orwell-vs-proto-chomskyites.html

LaRondo · #10 07-15-2007, 12:22 AM

Even though, I like Orwells books, as mentioned, I think his visionary outlook ended in 1984. Human intellect has shifted into a new sphere with the beginning of the second millenium.
Most of the quotations are taken out of context, terminology has changed and for that matter, it's difficult to apply their contents to current developments. Yet, parallels remain.

Many, out of the 'left field' have risen to enormous power, without the worship of it. To name a few: Bob Dylan, John Lennon, JFK, MLK, and even Einstein, who after all is the "Finding-Father" of the formula, that keeps the more conservative field so conveniently in power.
And as we all remember, many of those Powerful Liberals, could only be stopped through assassination.

t walgamuth · #11 07-15-2007, 06:28 AM

ACtually the Kennedys were not all that liberal by today's standards.

JFK an RFK preferred tax incentives to mandates, and worked well with businesses to achieve goals.

Their sympathies were with the disadvantaged, though.

I have often wondered how our lives would be different if they had not been assasinated. And don't forget that George Wallace was shot too.....and his removal as an independent pretty much assured Nixon re election.

Tom W

Honus · #12 07-15-2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

...Quotes from famous people (like quotes from the Bible) are like stats, they can be used to prove just about anything...

So, you think it's OK to mislead by using a quote out of context? I suppose that is your point, since you did not respond to La Rondo's charge that you took Orwell out of context.

BTW, La Rondo, after reading the excerpt from Savage's letter, I am unclear on why BENZ-LGB's quote was "wildly out of context."

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

... I am never disappointed by people's behavior in this regard because as Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."...Have a WONDERFUL weekend you all, I am off to an overnight camping trip.

I love it. First you imply that La Rondo has a small mind and then you tell everyone to have a WONDERFUL weekend.

LaRondo · #13 07-15-2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

ACtually the Kennedys were not all that liberal by today's standards.

JFK an RFK preferred tax incentives to mandates, and worked well with businesses to achieve goals.

Their sympathies were with the disadvantaged, though.

I have often wondered how our lives would be different if they had not been assasinated. And don't forget that George Wallace was shot too.....and his removal as an independent pretty much assured Nixon re election.

Tom W

I agree with you on what we call so lightly, "liberal" perception and also on your stand regarding the Kennedys

LaRondo · #14 07-15-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

So, you think it's OK to mislead by using a quote out of context? I suppose that is your point, since you did not respond to La Rondo's charge that you took Orwell out of context.

BTW, La Rondo, after reading the excerpt from Savage's letter, I am unclear on why BENZ-LGB's quote was "wildly out of context."I love it. First you imply that La Rondo has a small mind and then you tell everyone to have a WONDERFUL weekend.

It's not Benz LGB's quote, it's an excerpt out of a letter Orwell wrote as a response, very specifically addressing the passivity of those refusing to fight the German, in case of an upcoming invasion.

It is not suited to stand alone and is effectively misleading, if the context is disregarded.
To make a generic statement, that "pacifism is objectively pro-fascism" is in itself already wildly out of context.
It's like accusing a bank teller of being an accomplice for handing the money over to the bank robber, while looking into the mouth of a gun barrel.
Here again the quote:
" Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, 'he that is not with me is against me. "
What Orwell is referring to, is "the hampering" of the war effort which could result in helping out the other side. Maybe those, he tried to address weren't in fact Pacifists as they claimed.
A true Pacifist's first intention wouldn't be to help the other side, nor to hamper. It could certainly result in such consequence, yet to disqualify Pacifism in general for this particular reason, appears rather stereotypish.
Beyond that, Orwell clearly refered to the 'present' war out of which he didn't see 'any real way of remaining outside'.

LaRondo · #15 07-15-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

On the subject of dictatorships:
" Power is not a means, it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. "

Does that as well count for the "American Revolution"?