Photovoltaic system question - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Chad300tdt · #1 08-03-2007, 11:43 PM

I have a 9600 watt kiln that will be used 12-24 hours at a time 2-3 times a week possibly 4. I want to see if there is a cost effective way to offset the energy use with photovoltaics considering I live in the Northeast near Philadelphia (so you know the solar conditions here).

I've already done the basics for reducing my energy consumption, including home insulation, solar attic fan, energy star appliances, flourescent light bulbs, recycling, and composting.

The kiln is a necessary Energy Hog that I'd like to be more comfortable with environmentally and financially. I would appreciate any help to get me started.

Chas H · #2 08-03-2007, 11:56 PM

Solar panels in SE PA are not cost effective unless you can get a hefty rebate. You've pretty much done all you can to lower your consumption. The cheaper way to make heat is oil and that prolly won't make for a proper kiln.

mpolli · #3 08-04-2007, 01:26 AM

I am not the biggest PV expert but I will give you my .02 which agrees with what was just said. Currently solar is generally not cost effective without subsidies. Adding to that are the solar conditions in PA which are not necessarily bad but not as good as a lot of other areas (Arizona...). Further you are talking about a lot of energy there. Even in Arizona it might not be practical. You might want to look into a waste oil burner. Burning either WMO or WVO. You can look at the altfuelfurnace group at Yahoo for more info. They generally modify Beckett oil burners with siphon nozzles to burn waste oil. There are people in that group running these for kilns.

Mike

t walgamuth · #4 08-04-2007, 07:47 AM

I believe you also can buy gas fired kilns. Around here gas is still the cheapest way to heat things besides wood....which perhaps is debatable too.

Tom W

SwampYankee · #5 08-04-2007, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad300tdt

I have a 9600 watt kiln that will be used 12-24 hours at a time 2-3 times a week possibly 4. I want to see if there is a cost effective way to offset the energy use with photovoltaics considering I live in the Northeast near Philadelphia (so you know the solar conditions here).

I've done a fair amount of research on solar installation since it's something we're considering for our business. We've got 40K sq.ft. of wide open flat roof just begging for something. The numbers can be a bit daunting, though. Go to FindSolar.com and you can get a rough idea of the size and cost of the system you would need.

Just to give you an idea, we average 12,959 kWh/month. We have a "Good" solar rating. They estimate the system based on 50% of our electrical usage over the course of the year and come up with a 70kW peak system, which covers about 7,000 sq.ft. of roof area. When I ran the numbers last December:

Estimated Installation Cost: $630,000 (for everything-Cells, Batteries, Wiring, Labor)
State of CT Rebate: ($25,000)
Federal Tax Credit: ($181,000)
For an estimated Net Cost of $423,500

The break even point for us would be at about 10 years if you factor property value appreciation (which is somewhat nebulous) and 17 years assuming no property value appreciation.

Obviously a home system won't be nearly as large and as expensive, but the numbers add up fast. You can get long-term loans, but the estimated lifespan on the lastest gen cells are 20-25 years.

We haven't ruled it out completely and have contacted a company that leases the cells as opposed to buying them. Maybe we'll go a different direction all together and do a green roof system.

One thing that made a bigger difference than we expected was change all of our flourescent lights in the warehouse to the new, energy efficient ones. It cost us about $7,000 for lamps, bulbs and labor but we cut 1200 kWh off of our electric usage per month which is almost 10%!

t walgamuth · #6 08-04-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I've done a fair amount of research on solar installation since it's something we're considering for our business. We've got 40K sq.ft. of wide open flat roof just begging for something. The numbers can be a bit daunting, though. Go to FindSolar.com and you can get a rough idea of the size and cost of the system you would need.

Just to give you an idea, we average 12,959 kWh/month. We have a "Good" solar rating. They estimate the system based on 50% of our electrical usage over the course of the year and come up with a 70kW peak system, which covers about 7,000 sq.ft. of roof area. When I ran the numbers last December:

Estimated Installation Cost: $630,000 (for everything-Cells, Batteries, Wiring, Labor)
State of CT Rebate: ($25,000)
Federal Tax Credit: ($181,000)
For an estimated Net Cost of $423,500

The break even point for us would be at about 10 years if you factor property value appreciation (which is somewhat nebulous) and 17 years assuming no property value appreciation.

Obviously a home system won't be nearly as large and as expensive, but the numbers add up fast. You can get long-term loans, but the estimated lifespan on the lastest gen cells are 20-25 years.

We haven't ruled it out completely and have contacted a company that leases the cells as opposed to buying them. Maybe we'll go a different direction all together and do a green roof system.

One thing that made a bigger difference than we expected was change all of our flourescent lights in the warehouse to the new, energy efficient ones. It cost us about $7,000 for lamps, bulbs and labor but we cut 1200 kWh off of our electric usage per month which is almost 10%!

How big is the array for that system?

Tom W

SwampYankee · #7 08-04-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

How big is the array for that system?

Tom W

It would cover 7,000 sq.ft. of roof area. And that's based on 50% of our electricity needs. If we were to go to "100%" it would be 14,000 sq.ft., but the cost doesn't double (closer to 1.6 times the cost) since other incentives, rebates and other discounts would apply.

Chas H · #8 08-04-2007, 10:37 AM

Another possiblity is an off-peak meter and circuit. The power company will charge a lower rate for usage during the late night and early morning hours.

t walgamuth · #9 08-04-2007, 10:48 AM

Interesting facts.

One day the cost of the photovoltiacs and the cost of buying electricity curves will intersect and they will offer practical solutions for everyday needs.

I imagine one day that you will be able to buy shingles to put on your home that will convert sun energy to electricity for use in your home.

In the mean time, interior appliances will continue to get more effecient so that usage will fall.

The cost of electricity is making me think of ways to use less. A few weeks ago we had a power outage that lasted a few hours. I tried reading by candle light.....not bad. Now I just have to figure out how to run my computer by pedaling and my central ac by burning cow poop and grass clippings and I will be fine.

Tom W

Chad300tdt · #10 08-04-2007, 10:59 AM

It sounds like I should consider other alternatives. I was considering a system that would use a generator to power something like this:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=8795&R=8795&cm_ven=TL&cm_pla=DF&cm_ite=gen

What type of generator would be most efficient and quiet? Although I could build a shed around it. Maybe a diesel generator that I could convert to WVO and collect fuel from the restaurants near me for free, but the exhaust and noise probably wouldn't be acceptable to my neighbors.

I already have the kiln or I would try to get a natural gas or propane burning type. I also like electric because it is safer for my kiln environment and I believe allows better results for glass firing and annealing.

SwampYankee · #11 08-04-2007, 11:03 AM

Tom, don't they have shingle-type cells for home use already? I thought I saw or read something on them but maybe it was more along the lines of something that will be available in the near future.

I couldn't get away with them since they wouldn't pass Historic District Commission muster anyway, but they'd be a good option for those not wanting a bank of panels attached to their roofs.

If I had to pedal to use my computer I'd be in a helluva lot better shape!

SwampYankee · #12 08-04-2007, 11:11 AM

Chad, if you want to run a generator on VO (W or S) check into the Listers or Listeroids which are low RPM, agricultural-type engines. They are relatively quiet compared to the standard, high RPM types. There are a number of sites devoted to them and many threads about running them on VO. Hook it up to a powerhead and your ready to get off grid.

If I weren't smack dab in the middle of suburbia, had the time to collect, filter and room to store the stuff, I'd consider it. I have given thought to something like that for our camp in Maine, though.

Any other news yet?

http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php

http://www.cybernet1.com/mcquaid/GenSets.htm

Chad300tdt · #13 08-04-2007, 11:26 AM

I saw a program on HGTV about the solar shingles. They lay on flat like shingles but they still have the glossy surface. They aren't as obvious as panels, but you can still see them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

Chad, if you want to run a generator on VO (W or S) check into the Listers or Listeroids which are low RPM, agricultural-type engines. They are relatively quiet compared to the standard, high RPM types. There are a number of sites devoted to them and many threads about running them on VO. Hook it up to a powerhead and your ready to get off grid.

If I weren't smack dab in the middle of suburbia, had the time to collect, filter and room to store the stuff, I'd consider it. I have given thought to something like that for our camp in Maine, though.

Any other news yet?

http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister.html

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php

http://www.cybernet1.com/mcquaid/GenSets.htm

Thanks for the information. I'll be checking in to this avenue more thoroughly.

As for other news … Thanks for asking. We are still waiting and 1 day past due date. I'll post back with any progress. I am not a very patient person, the suspense is killing me.

SwampYankee · #14 08-04-2007, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad300tdt

As for other news … Thanks for asking. We are still waiting and 1 day past due date. I'll post back with any progress. I am not a very patient person, the suspense is killing me.

Not to discourage you, but mine were 2 weeks, 10 days, 12 days, and 9 days late respectively.