Israel risks apartheid-like struggle if two-state solution fails, says Olmert



· Jewish state is finished without deal, warns PM
· Effort to renew public backing for peace talks

Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem
Friday November 30, 2007
The Guardian


Israel's prime minister issued a rare warning yesterday that his nation risked being compared to apartheid-era South Africa if it failed to agree an independent state for the Palestinians. In an interview with the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, Ehud Olmert said Israel was "finished" if it forced the Palestinians into a struggle for equal rights.
If the two-state solution collapsed, he said, Israel would "face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights, and as soon as that happens, the state of Israel is finished". Israel's supporters abroad would quickly turn against such a state, he said.
"The Jewish organisations, which were our power base in America, will be the first to come out against us because they will say they cannot support a state that does not support democracy and equal voting rights for all its residents," he said.
The Israeli government is usually bitterly resentful of any comparison to the apartheid regime but Olmert's remarks looked like an effort to galvanise support from a sceptical Israeli public for a return to peace negotiations with the Palestinians in the days after the Annapolis conference.
Israel has a 20% Arab minority who are citizens and can vote, although they are frequently discriminated against and are described by some as a "demographic threat". Within a few years the number of Arabs in Israel and the Palestinian territories is expected to equal, and then exceed, the number of Jews in Israel and the settlements. Some Palestinians argue that they should campaign for a so-called one-state solution: equal voting and citizenship rights within a larger country that includes Israel and the occupied territories and in which Palestinians will soon have a majority.
It is not the first time that Olmert has risked the South African comparison. Four years ago, in another interview with Ha'aretz, he gave a similar warning. But that was a time when, as deputy to the then prime minister Ariel Sharon, he argued that Israel should unilaterally draw up a border with the Palestinians, withdrawing from Gaza and holding on to the major Jewish settlement blocs in the West Bank.
He bluntly described his goal then as being "to maximise the number of Jews; to minimise the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem". But in the wake of Hamas's domination of Gaza and last year's war in Lebanon, unilateralism is discredited among Israelis, at least for now.
Olmert's warning yesterday came on the anniversary of the 1947 UN partition plan that would have divided British mandate Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. His words resonated across the political spectrum.
Israeli historian Tom Segev wrote in yesterday's Ha'aretz: "It is not easy to understand why so many Israelis still believe that a large Israel without peace is better than a small Israel with peace." Israel had most to lose, he said. "With every settler who moves to the territories and with every Palestinian child who is killed by Israel Defence Forces fire, Israel loses some of the moral justification that led to the decision on the November 29 60 years ago. The Palestinians have already lost almost everything they had."
Gerald Steinberg, chairman of the political science department at Israel's Bar-Ilan University, said Olmert's comments reflected a long-held belief. "The logic is precisely the same as the logic pursued by all Israeli governments since 1967: the realisation that you can't have a Jewish, democratic state and still control the lives of millions of Palestinians," he said. He said it was still open to question whether the Annapolis negotiations would succeed. If they failed, the Israeli government might return to the idea of a unilateral withdrawal from most of the West Bank, but one that left the Israeli military deployed.

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I doubt that will work.

Israel gave up the Gaza strip, and look at the mess the Hamas Palestinians made of that, as soon as they got it. I wonder how many Israelis think that was a mistake.

They have given up enough land already, at this point. Once it is gone, it will be gone.

Tney should not be so eager to give up even MORE, now. There seems to no shortage of Palestinians and radicals, who would be glad to exterminate the lot of them, or drive every last one of them straight into the sea.

Without addressing - or minimising - the Palestinian concerns, many of which are legitimatee, I would personally think the Israelis have, for now, given up enough territory, and made enough concessions.

What do the Palestinians bring to the table? Can you tell me that?

Do they even unanimously recognize the right of Israel to even exist?

What do they even produce and export, other than violence and carnage?

Looking at the goings on in Gaza strip, it often looks like they are little more than a bloodthirsty mob, often times.

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Israel is not giving up land... some they give back that belongs others, and they are still bulldozing non jewish houses and creating "settlements". Terrorists are just a military fighting a war against a vastly superior army. You'd be a bitter to the end if your house was bulldozed and your family was left with nothing, your brothers, fathers and cousins killed. Israel is like the Empire in Star Wars... the tighter you squeeze the more sand you cannot hold in you hands. I don't believe in either side's reasoning, but at least I attempt to understand both sides. You can not solve this issue until you understand the feelings of the two sides.

What we have is 2 kids in the back seat fighting away. Yes, what you say has truth. However, the Palestinians also brought it upon themselves by letting themselves be used as a proxy by Egypt. With this in mind, can you blame Israel for not wanting them around? Also when you start a war and you lose territory, whose fault is it? This is not to say that Israel is without fault. They tend to push the envelope and then some. So, like I said, 2 kids in the backseat scrapping.

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I'm not sure how Palestinians brought it on themselves. They owned most of what is Israel before the Israelis conquered them.

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Firstly, they were involved in a war. In a war, you might gain territory or lose it. If you DON'T want to possibly lose territory, don't fight a war. IIRC, I read somewhere that when the arabs wanted to invade, the palestinians were offered a deal that would give them land in exchange for cooperation. Even lately, when they were offered a chance to talk, they said they would talk peace but somehow could not have even 14 days of ceasefire. Doesn't sound like someone who wants peace, does it?

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If it affected no one else I really wouldn't care, but we get sucked in.

We need to beat Isreal with a stick, which at this point we can in the form of guns and cash. Then find a way to smack whoever is in charge of the Palestinians, and get them both to a table. It would almost be better if we were giving the Palestinians weapons as well...we would have some leverage.

Its like dealing with two little kids, make up and be friends or else! Lock them in a room and say figure it out or you are both screwed.

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Unfortunately, you are in a world which is shrinking. Now we are in one big neighborhood. You have a cesspool at the top of the hill. Yes it is your property. However, it is affecting my resale value. Hence people form HOAs.

There are many factions of the Palestinians. For instance, Hammas and Fatah are fighting for control.

You cannot force friendship on others. You cannot force them to be friends. Look at the USSR. It succeeded until they broke up and we have ethnic cleansing. All you do is hide it for a while

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I'm not talking about being friends, I'm talking about getting them to stop killing eachother. Take away Isreals US guns and money and the tempo of their ops would probably slow right down.

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Indeed.............but do you really think the lobby here would stand for that or for that matter any US politician have the courage to even dare suggest that.

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Ron Pual would.

He may not win this time(sadly) but he has planted a seed...

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1969 280SE
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And what happens when you come calling and say "Hey, friend. I need a favor."? At that point, they might turn around and say "Sure, buddy. Take a number.". The trick of addiction is NOT to let the addict walk away. Just like a store. Why do they open long hours? Because if you go somewhere else, you might not be back.

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04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
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Yep thats truly unfortunate, only worry is if he doesn't win, the sapling that will grow would be squashed away for good.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B. I doubt that will work.

Without even debating what land belongs to who, who is setting the parameters for the concessions claimed being made?
Who decides over Palestinians right of self-determination, their right to defend themselves or their right to exists as a state and social framework?
They certainly did exist before The Balflour Declaration, without severe concerns and without presenting a cause on their own behalf.

Again, who grants Israel the right to exist and to defend itself, yet does not apply equal parameters to Palestinians?

BTW, personally I would look at existence as a privilege rather than a ‘right’.


That’s a very typical, even stereotypical language nowadays. I don’t patronize so called “churches” but I know for a fact that this kind of language is being used during worship hours and bible studies, particularly in places, where Judeo-Christian doctrines are perpetrated.
It’s a dangerous mixture of Bible-rhetoric, Holocaust-mongering, and modern media politics.

If there was ever something it probably was deemed inapplicable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B. Do they even unanimously recognize the right of Israel to even exist? .

Apparently not. So, we just go and force them to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B. What do they even produce and export, other than violence and carnage? .

Do you think it would be more appropriate to recycle and re-export the sewage that is rerouted from Israeli settlements into their fresh-water supplies? .[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B. Looking at the goings on in Gaza strip, it often looks like they are little more than a bloodthirsty mob, often times.

…and Israel the lamb of innocence, just a “peace loving” nation.

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Well Palestinians are like trapped animals inside a walled cage chewing each other's heads off as any animal/human would do faced with same situation. I must commend Israel on a job well done.

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2015 Gurkha with OM616 DI turbo

2014 Rexton W with OM612 VGT