Any attorneys here familiar with the history of treason and heresy laws in Europe and the US? I've been thinking about executions of heretics such as Servetus in Geneva and Aitkin in Scotland. Most modern people find executions for heresy appalling but I think we still consider treason a capital crime in some instances. I'm wondering if executions of heretics in earlier times are the social equivalent of executions of traitors? In other words, when religion and state were closely intertwined heresy was a version of treason. I'm curious as to how countries in Europe which executed heretics constructed the difference between a heretic and a traitor. Did anti-heresy and anti-treason laws always exist side by side or did anti-treason laws evolve as anti-heresy laws declined?

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Why go to Europe? How about Salem, MA, 1700's.....?

People tend to forget that it was the church itself that brought the witch trials to an end.
Accountability!

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Yes, Salem's ok. I was thinking of Europe mostly because the laws could be traced back a little further there, probably to Roman law. I was also thinking of it because I'm taking students to Scotland and we're going to be staying in a hostel on the street where Thomas Aitkin was hanged for heresy (despite recanting) in the 1690's.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I think it all comes down to the seperation of church and state. The Pilgrims got away from religious persecution by coming to the New World. The church of England was giving them a rough time. The US has never got into church leaders running the show and therefore anyone opposing their dogma was ok. But mess with the feds...

Also, and sorry, but I find this silly. Comparing conscious activities against the govt. (which is arguably real) defined by Art. III of the US Constitution with alleged activities against supposed deities which may or may not exist isn't worthy to be the subject of a good compare/contrast essay question.

I'm not convinced it's silly. I'd like to know the evolution of the idea in the US Constitution and how that history is intertwined with the connection between Church and State. Was there any transition in the concept of treason from simple lack of allegiance to a monarch to the idea that treason is a conscious act of concrete betrayal. For instance, the massacre at Glencoe in Scotland occurred just because one of the clan leaders was a little late in taking an oath of allegiance. How different was that than an execution for failing to give allegiance to the God of the state?

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I would suggest www.findlaw.com and do a search on Art. III, requesting an annotated case list.

The idea that we should kill those amongst us that conspire with the enemy to kill us doesn't seem too confusing to me, or comparable to or derivative of executions for heresy in earlier times.

Kerry,
You might be onto something.
The English called the revolution, the"Presbyterian rebellion". IIRC, all of Washington's officer corps ( above captain?) with but a single exception were Presbyterian elders ( rulers in the church).
The Three Courts of Presbyterian government ( local church Session, Presbytery and General Assembly) mirrors the way our civil courts progress. The only national communication system in the colonies was that same Presbyterian system which linked local churches to area churches to all Presbyterian churches in the nation. Express riders could ride between Presbyteries; the news could then easily be carried to the local churches.

As to whether you can establish a linkage between heresy and treason, I will be interested to watch

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

If the goal is to establish a link then the link will be established. This is the nature of conspiracy theories.

If instead, the goal is to determine whether there is a link then you have a question which could have direct of indirect links or no link of any sort.

B

http://www.constitution.org/cmt/jwh/jwh_treason_jr.htm

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Jason Priest
1999 E430
1995 E420 - retired
1986 420SEL - retired

At the stone-aged tribal level, what do we think would happen if the people of one tribe conspired with a competing tribe to undermine the corporate will of his own tribe?

Also, prior to the US of A, I cannot think of a nation that was founded on reasoned secular principles and not divine revelation or mythology. Looking at history, we see the divine right of kings, Olympian favor to the nation-people, the center of the universe being the center of human power in the nation, etc. In those nations, all of them, there was no separation of church and state.

The separation did not occur de novo in the USA. Clearly, it was an evolutionary process in the western culture (there is a radically different evolutionary pathway still unfolding in eastern cultures). In the 2 dominant cultures in our shared history: Greek & Roman, there was absolutely no separation of church and state -- they were inseparable, the same. This is why for example, Socrates was condemned and also why Socrates accepted his condemnation. His allegiance was tribal, not cosmopolitan.

In Rome, especially imperial Rome, the head of religion was also the head of state -- Caesar. Himself a declared god.

It is my belief that the fissures of separation in western culture began with one man, Jesus Christ. Throughout his recorded ministry he preached that life in God stood outside of life in the world. Perhaps one of his most famous lines was, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things which are God's." Clearly, Jesus recognizes a difference between the state and God. In support of that argument, this is one of the charges used in his arrest when he was first brought before Pontius Pilate. Do you remember how Jesus defended himself against that particular charge? He told Pilate that his kingdom to be was not of Earth but of heaven. Pilate reasonably concluded that the issue was none of Rome's problem but rather, an ecclesiastical issue within the Jahweh cult. Jesus' defense was itself a separation of church and state.

What does all of this mean?

It means that the question of whether the origins of heresy and treason is not an "ape and man" question at all. Just as Man is not descended from apes, treason is not descended from heresy. Rather, in both cases they share a common ancestor.

B

God created man --- >man created treason --- >man created heresy

The abridged version.

Thanks. Haven't read it yet but it looks good. Found a book last night, Treason Against God which also looks promising.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13