Dr. Micheal Schermer talks about his book "The Science of Good and Evil".
Interesting: He points out that religion has no bearing on morality. Statistically, divorce and infidelity rates are just as high for Christians as non-Christians.

This takes the hot air out of all the "self righteous" Christians out there! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2gIynxedw

Clearly you aren't seeing the same thing that I see.

It appears that many people think that "God isn't smiling" on the country because of secularism, abortion, homosexuality and a whole host of other "sins."

This affects their own lives and marriages. If only "God were smiling" on the country, there wouldn't be any divorce or infidelity.

Most of the hardcore Christians that I've ever known usually had only the highest opinion of themselves morally and the lowest opinion of others (non-Christians). The truth is another story isn't it? Believing in God really DOESN'T make you a better person, you just have a higher opinion of yourself!

IMO self-righteousness is the biggest problem with the American church.
Many Christians believe that they did something to merit God's favor. Since they rec'd God's favor, He must be pleased with them, and how they are living their life. At least thats what they think.

The Bible presents a VERY different situation. No one is good enough to merit God's favor. We are all equal and alike in that regard. God's favor rests on those of His choosing--there is no place for pride. Recipients of God's favor should recognize that they are no better than anyone else--in fact they should be even more aware of their own short comings, and live a life characterized by meekness, and forgiveness.
Unfortunately, this is not often fully understood., taught, or lived.
Too bad.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Shermer is great. A true scientist. He debunks almost ALL pseudoscience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T_jwq9ph8k

You misspelled "idolotor"; the root of the word would be "idolatry". So religion is not for you, it's helped many people. What do you care if they have the same failure rate as others? Why should they be exempted anyway?

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- Brian


1989 500SEL Euro
1966 250SE Cabriolet
1958 BMW Isetta 600

The divorce rate comparison is interesting to me because sexuality and friendship are pretty central components of human life so comparing the religious and secular on this point is telling. You could choose some other measure such as consumption of bacon by Muslims/Christians/Agnostics and I'll bet you'll find a more significant difference.
I think the whole topic is very important because there seems to be a tendency in a fairly significant proportion of the religious population to believe that non-religious people lack any basis for ethics, hence non-religious people are likely to be less ethical people. This undermines most attempts to create religiously neutral governments.
I type this in Edinburgh, one of the first regions of the Christian world to develop an intellectual movement committed to the view that ethics can be divorced from religion and remain effective. Francis Hutcheson was put on trial in the 18th century while Professor of Moral Philosophy at the University of Glasgow for denying original sin because he claimed that each individual had a 'moral sense' which enabled them to reach their own moral judgments. Adam Smith was absolutely brilliant in analyzing human moral psychology, seeing quite clearly that human interaction involves constant exercise of moral judgment.
Both these men now have large brass plaques on the entrance gate to the University of Glasgow, well deserving of this honor as precursors to Shermer.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

And I think that ethics and religion are easily seperated because I believe in the "internal moral compass" idea which was most likely installed/not installed by the person's upbringing. I'm just amazed at why this country likes to bash the Christians so much. The Christians set for themselves a lofty goal of living in a way that would worship God (such as being honest, fair, and accepting), and when they fail to do that in a perfect manner they get fingers pointed at them and scolded by the non-Christians. Having the lofty goal is an important first step and worthy of praise even if the goal wasn't met.

Do we mock the recovering alcoholic when he fails to maintain sobriety or do we say to him "try it again"? You have to something to aim for that is better than you are now, otherwise what's the point of having a goal? What's the point of growing and improving?

Liberty in America requires the internal moral compass - if we're going to be free, then we need to guide ourselves righteously. Most Americans do - some use religion to attain that, some don't. I don't care how they do it, as long as it's done.

__________________
- Brian


1989 500SEL Euro
1966 250SE Cabriolet
1958 BMW Isetta 600

What about that "Judge not lest ye be judged" thingie?

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1995 E 420, 170k "The Red Plum" (sold)

2015 BMW 535i xdrive awd Stage 1 DINAN, 6k, <----364 hp

1967 Mercury Cougar, 49k

2013 Jaguar XF, 20k <----340 hp Supercharged, All Wheel Drive (sold)

Lets not forget that it's also has shafted many people, been the reason and/or excuse for wars, etc, etc.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
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05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
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04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Well, if they would stop pointing fingers at others who are not wanting to share in their festivities, maybe people won't mock them so much. Go about your own worship and beliefs but don't try tell others that their beliefs and worship or lack of is so bad that this, that or the other will happen to them.

That is what laws are for

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I sure would like this idea to gain greater traction.

I think developing good judgment is an essential part of the moral life. Judge not and you will have an aimless life.
The problem I see with many religious people is not that they are judging but that they lack good judgment.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I don't disagree that having good judgment is an essential part of life. However, that is for YOUR LIFE. Not MY LIFE, HIS LIFE, HER LIFE, etc, etc.

As long as they MYOB I could care less what they judge. IOW, if you and your circle of people want to judge each other and are consenting, play ball. Don't come trying to steer me into your way of thinking. Don't want to go to the titty bar? No problem. Don't go. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one. Don't try stop me from going.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I think there's a world of difference between judging someone's else actions and trying to steer that person to your way of thinking. My cousin doesn't routinely check his engine oil. I judge that behavior stupid. I don't go trying to convert him to the oil checking church.
I had a student last semester who had gotten pregnant at age 18 from a relationship with a loser boyfriend who already had children he wasn't supporting from other women. She chose to carry the fetus to term. I judged that decision unwise. Didn't say a word to her about her decision.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13