For those who wish to dish out on Christianity - Page 48 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Idolotor · #**706** 08-04-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

What if they are right?

If there's only one way to eternal life and you know what it is, wouldn't you feel some sort of moral obligation to persuade people to change their perspective on life, the universe, and everything?

There is a problem with their thinking though... Their implication is that ONLY they are right and everyone else is wrong. That's a judgement call by christianity itself and their own bible says it's wrong to sit in judgement of others. They're violating their own rules of conduct.

It's an elitists attitude, pretty much like all the rest of the religions on Earth also have. Christianity is no better or different than any of the others. Just a different flavor...

kerry · #**707** 08-04-2008, 02:53 PM

Has anyone ever run across a (quasi) Christian or Muslim who thinks that their God demands that avoidance of eternal punishment only comes thru their religion but refuses to worship such a god for reasons of moral principle since it puts too many innocent good people in hell for eternity for no good reason?

In other words, why doesn't MS refuse to worship his own God since this God is sending Aklim to hell, whereas Aklim doesn't really seem to deserve it?

MS Fowler · #**708** 08-04-2008, 04:42 PM

I do not believe the root of the matter is any insecurity. It is a belief in the document that supports the faith.

There are more facts thru archeology that you can imagine. the ones I find particularly interesting are those where people doubted that certain peoples ever existed as there was no extra-biblical record of them. So they denounce the Bible as myth. Then a few more years, and more study, and, they find the non-existant people in records independent of the Bible. Yet these findings do not convert the doubters-they simply move to another argument.

BENZ-LGB · #**709** 08-04-2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

whereas Aklim doesn't really seem to deserve it?

That last point is debatable. I think even aklim would agree that he is in all probability earned a ticket on the down escalator.

And, technically speaking (as long as we are speking about Christianity) we are all born with a one-way ticket on the down elevator.

It is through faith and God's grace that we get to turn in that down ticket and pick up a ride on the up elevator.

Idolotor · #**710** 08-04-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Has anyone ever run across a (quasi) Christian or Muslim who thinks that their God demands that avoidance of eternal punishment only comes thru their religion but refuses to worship such a god for reasons of moral principle since it puts too many innocent good people in hell for eternity for no good reason?

In other words, why doesn't MS refuse to worship his own God since this God is sending Aklim to hell, whereas Aklim doesn't really seem to deserve it?

Why would a kind, loving, all-knowing god send anyone to be tortured for eternity? Doesn't the christian's own bible say something like - "forgive and forget"? This god sounds vengeful and angry.

Idolotor · #**711** 08-04-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

That last point is debatable. I think even aklim would agree that he is in all probability earned a ticket on the down escalator.

And, technically speaking (as long as we are speking about Christianity) we are all born with a one-way ticket on the down elevator.

It is through faith and God's grace that we get to turn in that down ticket and pick up a ride on the up elevator.

So... you think we're all born evil or bad?

chetwesley · #**712** 08-04-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I find it interesting that some of you base your rejection of Chgristianity on what you want to believe is true. i.e.--"I could not believe in a God who would...."

That reasoning may be fine for any and all man-made religions. You choose.

But, if the Bible really is the Word of God, given to man, then it is true, and what it says about God is true, regardless of whether it is convenient truth or inconvenient truth. You agreement with it, or not does not matter. For instance, you may tell your child that the gas grille on the patio is "hot". You may instuct him or her diligently. But if you child refuses to listen to your good instruction, and grabs the grille, he, or she will be marked for life.

To be fair, logically, the same applies to the believer's postion--the Bible is true or false independent of what the believer thinks, or believes, also.

For me, there is enough of the Bible that I can verify, that I have confidence that the parts I cannot objectively verify, are also true.
You may have a different opinion.

Here is what I don't understand about believing that the whole bible is the word of God: The bible has been translated, and then translated from translations, and then words altered for more contemporary meaning.

When you translate something (either to another language or to a more updated form of the same language), you loose subtle bits of the meaning, even in some cases changing the meaning of whole sentences, this can be especially so in texts which use analogy and poetic language.

Even the very simple term "God" was considered a name that humans were not worthy of saying, inconceivable by the mind of humans, in the original Hebrew. This creates a very different view of God than the way the word is used and thought of now. The common word for God in the Hebrew old testament is YVHV (which translates roughly to "I will be" or "I am thet I am"). Hebrew is a very complex language with a lot of correlations between letters and numbers, and other aspects not found in English. It is a more mystical and religion-centric language than English by nature, and contains subtleties that can't be translated into other languages with all the richness that is there in Hebrew. Even in that simple example, you can see the more mystical meaning inherent in one single word.

Making the assumption the the whole bible is actually the word of God, how can we be certain that the Bible as it is presented now represents the way that God originally intended it?

BENZ-LGB · #**713** 08-04-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

Their implication is that ONLY they are right and everyone else is wrong.

It is not an "implication" it is an article of faith. It makes perfectly good sense. When it comes to matters of salvation, moral relativism (or religious relativism) just doesn't work. This is one instance where there is NOT more than one way to skin a cat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

That's a judgement call by christianity itself and their own bible says it's wrong to sit in judgement of others. They're violating their own rules of conduct.

Not they are not violating their own "rules of conduct." You are simply engaging in an act of thin and transparent sophistry.

The Bible teaches Christians not to pass judgment on others, that only God may do that.

From the Gospel of St. Matthews:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

The Bible further teaches Christians that there is only one true God.

From Exodus:

(And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' )

In the first instance, Christians are taught not to judge others and not to be hypocrites by seeing the faul in others while ignoring their own failings.

In the second instance, Christians are taught that God is the one true God.

There are no inconsistencies and there are no so-called failures to live up to the Bible's code of conduct. Accepting God as the one true God does not involve passing judgment on others.

And please do not go on about all the so-called Christians who are bad and who are hypocrites. So what? Just because there are a few (or many) bad Christians does not defeat the validity of the faith.

BENZ-LGB · #**714** 08-04-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

So... you think we're all born evil or bad?

Yes. Some worse than others, but we are all tainted by the original sin.

BENZ-LGB · #**715** 08-04-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

Why would a kind, loving, all-knowing god send anyone to be tortured for eternity? Doesn't the christian's own bible say something like - "forgive and forget"? This god sounds vengeful and angry.

Again, your argument is mere sophism.

Read the Bible and you will see that eternal damnation is not the only alternative.

From the Book of John:

1. Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives,

2. But early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them.

3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and Pharisees brought a woman they had caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

4 "Teacher," they said to Jesus, "this woman was caught in the very act of adultery.

5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?"

6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger.

7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, "All right, stone her. But let those who have never sinned throw the first stones!"

8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman.

10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to her, "Where are your accusers? Didn't even one of them condemn you?"

11 "No, Lord," she said. And Jesus said, "Neither do I. Go and sin no more."

12 Jesus said to the people, "I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won't be stumbling through the darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life."

No one who believes has to burn in hell. It is a personal choice to burn in hell.

Idolotor · #**716** 08-04-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Yes. Some worse than others, but we are all tainted by the original sin.

So you think that your own god makes something that is bad huh? (people?)

I guess he's not so perfect.

A flawed god... time to switch!

kerry · #**717** 08-04-2008, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

And, technically speaking (as long as we are speking about Christianity) we are all born with a one-way ticket on the down elevator.
It is through faith and God's grace that we get to turn in that down ticket and pick up a ride on the up elevator.

All the more reason to resist worship of such a God on moral principle.

A264172 · #**718** 08-04-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

All the more reason to resist worship of such a God on moral principle.

It's called co-dependency.

The world treats us like Schmidt and is guaranteed to kill us someday, but some poor suckers can't seem to stop loving it.

Botnst · #**719** 08-04-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

There is a problem with their thinking though... Their implication is that ONLY they are right and everyone else is wrong. That's a judgement call by christianity itself and their own bible says it's wrong to sit in judgement of others. They're violating their own rules of conduct.

It's an elitists attitude, pretty much like all the rest of the religions on Earth also have. Christianity is no better or different than any of the others. Just a different flavor...

"elitist" is one of those words with all sorts of bafggage so before I use it, I will define it in my terms so everybody will understand what I mean when I use the term. If others have different definitions, that's fine. Just load-em up and let's deal with them.

Elite refers to a group of people who share common outstanding characteristics not shared by the majority. Thus, Olympic sports contenders are elite.

From that definition, elitism is the belief that people who share that uncommon attribute are best able to discuss it and/or are better at it.

In this sense elitism is the antonym of populism.

Sure, I guess the imperialistic religions (Islam, Christianity) are necessarily elitist, so what? Elitism is not necessarily evil, is it? If it is, then let's shoot everybody who competes at the highest level of sports and don't want to let the hoi polloi play in their sandboxes -- sports people are the epitome of elitists.

If the God-Creator of the universe selects you for special care I would think that might well be the ultimate elitism. It isn't they who say they are right, it is the God-Creator. They are merely messengers trying to save you from eternal death.

Etc.

B

Botnst · #**720** 08-04-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chetwesley

Here is what I don't understand about believing that the whole bible is the word of God: The bible has been translated, and then translated from translations, and then words altered for more contemporary meaning.

When you translate something (either to another language or to a more updated form of the same language), you loose subtle bits of the meaning, even in some cases changing the meaning of whole sentences, this can be especially so in texts which use analogy and poetic language.

Even the very simple term "God" was considered a name that humans were not worthy of saying, inconceivable by the mind of humans, in the original Hebrew. This creates a very different view of God than the way the word is used and thought of now. The common word for God in the Hebrew old testament is YVHV (which translates roughly to "I will be" or "I am thet I am"). Hebrew is a very complex language with a lot of correlations between letters and numbers, and other aspects not found in English. It is a more mystical and religion-centric language than English by nature, and contains subtleties that can't be translated into other languages with all the richness that is there in Hebrew. Even in that simple example, you can see the more mystical meaning inherent in one single word.

Making the assumption the the whole bible is actually the word of God, how can we be certain that the Bible as it is presented now represents the way that God originally intended it?

Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholics and most liberal protestants believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, not the literal Word of God. The Biblical literalists are common in the USA and a few other countries but are out of the mainstream of the majority of believers.

B