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  #1  
Old 11-29-2008, 03:14 AM
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Electric Vehicles: Fantasy or Reality?

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=720175&topart=newcarresearch

Get ready to pull the plug: Tesla is done. Well, almost. While the fledgling electrocar specialists haven’t hung a “gone fishing” sign on the front door just yet, it might be just a matter of time. That isn’t changing anytime soon, regardless of how much money company founder and newly appointed CEO Elon Musk can scare up for his pet project. And this group of Silicon Valley geniuses isn’t alone. You can simply add Tesla’s name to the long list of electric car builders that have talked a big game and failed to deliver.

You remember Tesla, right? It’s that band of Internet whiz kids, backed with Google bucks, who claimed its electric Roadster would revolutionize automobiles and show the Detroit dinosaurs how things could be done. You needed buckets to catch the slobbering hype in the media, a reservoir to hold the wishful thinking. But the company lacked two key elements: experience in designing, building and selling cars and the billions of dollars needed to create a real car company. Plus, it’s only offering is a two-seat, $110,000 sports car that makes as much sense for the fuel-crunched, cash-poor American family as a lunar lander.

more -

Chevy Volt video

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Last edited by cmac2012; 12-11-2008 at 12:59 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2008, 05:30 AM
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It seems to me that they are having engineering problems. I would say that they have a great product, they just have to work out the bugs.

I saw an EV conversion today. My local zoo is going to repower their propane, jeep based, glorified golf cart people mover with electric. They are doing it with off the shelf parts, in a union enviroment, on a budget of $60k That is for a train of 4 cars. And that includes some solar panels on the roof that we will hopefully sell them.

GM can't make an electric car for less than $80k? Baloney. They are a bunch of dinosaurs buring fossil fuels. I am beginning to think it will take the next generation to make EV's popular. Not because they can't work today, but just because of perception.
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2008, 11:06 AM
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In the 1950's, I believe most of the milk delivery trucks in the UK were electric if my memory serves me correctly. Distances were relatively short and they traveled early in the morning when people were sleeping so were quiet.

I looked pretty seriously for an electric car back in the early 90's. I almost bought a converted LeCar but it didn't have enough reserve to make my round trip commute. At the time, I thought the best option had been created by a CA guy on a Honda. Car was converted to electric with batteries. He had a separate trailer with a generator that he used if he needed to travel more than X miles. No need to haul the heavy generator around for in town trips, unlike the hybrids.
What was the problem with GM's Probe? When I was looking it was all the rage. It had a range which would have met my needs(40m?) but not my pocketbook.
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2008, 12:04 PM
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good article, I agreed with all of his major points...

Electric is WAY more viable than Hydrogen/FC

Tesla has good ideas but questionable execution/target market.
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Old 11-29-2008, 12:35 PM
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the EV1 was it... but they killed it.
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2008, 03:14 PM
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A 110K electric car is killed by a transmission? Sounds a little odd. This is what has been holding back EV technology for so long? The transmission!!

Well, the big issue in general is the batteries of course. Lead acid are too heavy and big, lithium too expensive. NiMH are pretty good but an oil company bought the patents and won't license it (true not conspiracy) look up Ovonics, they are in a patent battle right now.

GM can do it with the Volt but they would probably prefer to go bankrupt than actually make an electric car. There is another new battery technology, Oasis from Firefly Energy (carbon foam), but they are blowing smoke also and I doubt they have any intention of actually producing anything. And if they do don't be surprised if they get bought by an oil company. But once Obama gets in power it is hard to say what he might do to get the show on the road. He might make it illegal to suppress technology that could help the country. Hey I can dream....
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2008, 05:13 PM
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I think better times are needed to get these kinds of ventures off the ground. Maybe if they'd done it in '93, we'd have viable electrics now.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2008, 06:12 PM
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I think an electric car is the solution, but not the answer.

Despite all shown there are lead acid powered electrics that are capable of doing the job. I friend of a friend, I met him a few years ago and rode in his electric PickUp, the small Ford PU. He figured the conversion cost him just over 6k, could do 60, but realistically 45 ish top speed, around town very acceptable performance. If he was good he could get 50+ miles on a charge, recharge time 4 to 6 hours (3 or 4 charges as I recall). This one used the front half or third of the bed for the batteries, he talked of a buddy that did his as one flat layer so he har the full bed, just not full depth.


BUT we have it in our head that a vehicle must have a 300 mile range, 0 to 60 in, 80 mph top speed, and carry 4 + people.


Build a small, BUT not micro, sized vehicle that gets 60ish miles per charge. Enough to get the 80 % of the commuters to / from work, enough to do 90+ % of the local errands etc we all do. Most people have 2 cars, this would be ONE of them
Then get the goverment (I hate this, but) to subsidize office complexes, maybe shopping centers to put in charger (warming here in Chicago winter) stations.

Finally we would then use the other vehicle, or maybe a rental setup, to have a vehicle when we did need longer range, capacity etc.

We can recycle Lead acid batteries almost 100%, they are a proven and relatively inexpensive technology.

Sometime in the future we will come up with a better battery solution, but this will get us to there. From what I have read NMH, Li ... are still iffy for this type of application, expensive particulary if you need to replace them,
and not really environmentaly friendly.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2008, 06:35 PM
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There was a company in Golden Co back in the 90's that was routinely converting Ford Ranger's to electric. Don't know what the range was.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2008, 07:45 PM
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My 2 electrics are eminently practicable for short jaunts about town.

The Renault Dauphine conversion is the easiest to pilot,but the 1912 Baker has the most range,although limited to 20 mph.

Charging with a photovoltaic array helps enormously.

The deep-cell batteries last 4-5 years by the way.
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  #11  
Old 11-29-2008, 08:41 PM
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AMG is working on their "electric" powerplant, which they believe will further their "torque is everything"

The December Road & Track has a sneak test of the Ruf Electric 911 (E-Ruf Concept A)
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2008, 09:58 PM
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I was looking into an EV conversion just as a project, something to try. I looked at cars and motorcycle conversions. Its just too damned expensive. Most basic conversions cost $8K for the parts, not counting the price of the car and your labor. Limited to around 60mph and 50 miles with lead/acid batteries. It would take a very long time to make that money back. It would be an expensive toy.

I have a few small lithium/polymer batteries in the basement that power RC aircraft. They are finicky, expensive and sometimes dangerous little buggers. Very strict charge/discharge regimens must be followed or battery life is very short and explosion/fire a very real possibility. Handle with care. When I looked into EV conversions, lithium batteries are available but the "pack" would have cost $5K for a car but range would increase to 150miles.

I have a friend that works for the DOD over in Newport, hes a research scientist, PhD, working on fuel cells and exotic batteries for military applications. His professional opinion is that we are a long way away from a battery technology breakthrough and the current technologies have serious drawbacks. Hes a liberal/green type guy so believe me he wants this stuff to work.

The only thing that will make electric very attractive is very expensive fuel. Or very heavy government subsidies, which is just us paying for it anyway.

There is a company that converts Ford Rangers, brand new, to EV. They cost $40K each. When you can buy a Ranger for $15K the other $25K buys an awful lot of fuel.

Someday EV's will make more sense for the majority of people, but we just aren't there yet. Sure, some people loved the EV1, and I am sure there would be an instant market for a pure EV vehicle. That market however would be a diehard group that want that vehicle and accept its limitations. For the vast majority however it makes more sense to buy a small gasoline car ala, Civic, Focus, Corolla, Neon, Cobalt, Accent, etc. etc.

RT
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2008, 09:59 PM
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Insted of making pointless roadsters they need to make an electric Honda Accord that will do 60 in say 8-10 seconds, and has a range of 300ish miles. Price it for $24,995 out the door and you have a viable business.

Provided gas is over $3 a gallon. Under that range your sucking wind.
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2008, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatterasguy View Post
Provided gas is over $3 a gallon.
That will NEVER happen. People would refuse to pay such a high price... It will never go that high.

The beauty of short term memory.
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2008, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kknudson View Post
Sometime in the future we will come up with a better battery solution.
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=273&Itemid=100

Here it is. If they ever get around to making some. So far they mostly manufacture press releases and white papers.

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1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra
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