20'000 Troops amongst the US public

[AustinsCE]

How delightful!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217.html?hpid=topnews

By Spencer S. Hsu and Ann Scott Tyson
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, December 1, 2008; Page A01

The U.S. military expects to have 20,000 uniformed troops inside the United States by 2011 trained to help state and local officials respond to a nuclear terrorist attack or other domestic catastrophe, according to Pentagon officials.

The long-planned shift in the Defense Department's role in homeland security was recently backed with funding and troop commitments after years of prodding by Congress and outside experts, defense analysts said...

[pj67coll]

So what?

- Peter.

[AustinsCE]

Wonderful, huh? I feel safe now. Why are you acting so smug?

[Mistel]

The job of the military is to defend the country, not to be used against it's citizens

[Honus]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

So what?

- Peter.

IMO, these guys have a pretty good answer to your question:

...Domestic emergency deployment may be "just the first example of a series of expansions in presidential and military authority," or even an increase in domestic surveillance, said Anna Christensen of the ACLU's National Security Project. And Cato Vice President Gene Healy warned of "a creeping militarization" of homeland security.

"There's a notion that whenever there's an important problem, that the thing to do is to call in the boys in green," Healy said, "and that's at odds with our long-standing tradition of being wary of the use of standing armies to keep the peace." ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/30/AR2008113002217.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by Mistel

The job of the military is to defend the country, not to be used against it's citizens

Exactly where do you see anything in the article that indicates said troops are to used against citizens of the US?

- Peter.

[LUVMBDiesels]

Here is the answer:

The Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act substantially limit the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement.

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 16, 1878 after the end of Reconstruction. The Act prohibits most members of the federal uniformed services (the Army, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service) from exercising nominally state law enforcement, police, or peace officer powers that maintain "law and order" on non-federal property (states and their counties and municipal divisions) in the former Confederate states.

The statute generally prohibits federal military personnel and units of the National Guard under federal authority from acting in a law enforcement capacity within the United States, except where expressly authorized by the Constitution or Congress. The Coast Guard is exempt from the Act.

The text of the relevant legislation is as follows:
18 U.S.C. § 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

Also notable is the following provision within Title 10 of the United States Code (which concerns generally the organization and regulation of the armed forces and Department of Defense):
10 U.S.C. § 375. Restriction on direct participation by military personnel
The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.

There are a number of situations in which the Act does not apply. These include:
National Guard units while under the authority of the governor of a state;
Troops used under the order of the President of the United States pursuant to the Insurrection Act, as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots.
Under 18 U.S.C. § 831, the Attorney General may request that the Secretary of Defense provide emergency assistance if civilian law enforcement is inadequate to address certain types of threats involving the release of nuclear materials, such as potential use of a nuclear or radiological weapon. Such assistance may be by any personnel under the authority of the Department of Defense, provided such assistance does not adversely affect U.S. military preparedness.

SLIPPERY SLOPE DUDES...

[tankdriver]

Why was the Posse Comitatus Act enacted?
If it was enacted in 1878, then presumably the Founding Fathers desired no such restriction.

[Botnst]

Obama is going to ... what?

Pass the Koolaide.

B

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by tankdriver

Why was the Posse Comitatus Act enacted?
If it was enacted in 1878, then presumably the Founding Fathers desired no such restriction.

It was enacted to prevent another president from unilaterally declaring war on a state -- as Lincoln had done. The "Radical Republicans" who in every other way were big gov advocates (even back then) were eventually persuaded of the danger of Lincoln's precedent.

B

[tankdriver]

Originally Posted by Botnst

It was enacted to prevent another president from unilaterally declaring war on a state -- as Lincoln had done.

It doesn't sound like it. The language addresses law enforcement by military. There is nothing there that expressly prohibits the President from declaring war (already covered by the US Constitution) or invading South Carolina with troops and razing the state to the ground.
What it does say is that the army cannot police anywhere in America.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by tankdriver

It doesn't sound like it. The language addresses law enforcement by military. There is nothing there that expressly prohibits the President from declaring war (already covered by the US Constitution) or invading South Carolina with troops and razing the state to the ground.
What it does say is that the army cannot police anywhere in America.

Before the posse comitatus laws there was no formal structure preventing a president from sending troops into a state for L.E. Now there is structure. It reads as though it is giving permission in a way, I guess. But the fact of the matter is that unless a state is in open revolt or the state government is incapacited or openly defiant of federal law, the president must have a formal request from a governor for permission to send federal troops into a state for L.E. purposes.

This is precisely why the federal government was so slow in the Katrina fiasco. The state gov was functional and the fed could not federalize the disaster for military intervention without the governor's formal request. That wasn't made until a day and a half after the disaster. It takes about 2-3 days to mobilize even a rapid reaction force of any significant size. Etc.

The upshot is that the governor is legally the one who erquests federalization unless their is a general breakdown of law resulting in incapacitated state government or if the state is itself in open revolt.

Could a president order the troops anyway, in defiance of law? Certainly he could. That would be a military coup de'tat. At this juncture in this country I think that is incredibly unlikely.

[Botnst]

Here is the actual complete law.



Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

-Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 1385

I guess they could use the Navy or Marine Corps! But funny, they're never part of the black helicopter theories.

[AustinsCE]

Originally Posted by tankdriver

Why was the Posse Comitatus Act enacted?
If it was enacted in 1878, then presumably the Founding Fathers desired no such restriction.

Right, they desired no standing armies to begin with...

[Botnst]

Here is a great discussion provided by the agency that will probably lead the coup.

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm