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Old 04-22-2009, 01:51 PM
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Abu Garib: The Left was right again

Report links CIA, harsh military interrogations

Ex-Abu Ghraib officer: Study proves military people were scapegoats


updated 1 hour, 17 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The brutal treatment of prisoners by the military at Guantanamo Bay, Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and Afghanistan was systematic and a direct result of the CIA's early use of harsh interrogation tactics, according to a Senate report.
The 232-page report released Tuesday by the Senate Armed Services Committee came less than a week after President Barack Obama released the Aug. 1, 2002 memo that justified the use of severe methods by the CIA.
The timeline laid out in the report shows, however, that military and CIA officers were being trained how to conduct coercive interrogations for as much as eight months before receiving the Justice Department green light. The CIA had started conducting severe interrogations in the spring of 2002.



Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., the committee's chairman, said the report shows that abuse of prisoners was sweeping and not, as former Bush administration defense official Paul Wolfowitz once said, the result of "a few bad apples." As the No. 2 defense official, Wolfowitz was a major architect of the Iraq war.
"Authorizations of aggressive interrogation techniques by senior officials resulted in abuse and conveyed the message that physical pressures and degradation were appropriate treatment," Levin said.
The Senate investigation has been in a Pentagon security review since Nov. 21, 2008. Its findings were drawn from more than 70 interviews and 200,000 pages of classified and unclassified documents.
"In my judgment," Levin said, "the report represents a condemnation of both the Bush administration's interrogation policies and of senior administration officials who attempted to shift the blame for abuse such as that seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan to low-ranking soldiers."




Abu Ghraib scapegoats?
An Army Reserve colonel demoted from brigadier general because of prisoner abuses at the Abu Ghraib facility in Iraq said Wednesday the Senate report supports her contention that uniformed military people were made scapegoats for Bush administration policies.
Col. Janis Karpinski said that "from the beginning, I've been saying these soldiers did not design these techniques on their own."
Karpinski said she felt vindicated and said she thought it had taken "far too long" for the information about the history of the interrogation policy to surface publicly.

Eleven U.S. soldiers have been convicted and five officers, including Karpinski, have been disciplined in the Abu Ghraib scandal. Karpinski was demoted to colonel for alleged dereliction of duty — a charge she has vehemently denied. The only soldier still imprisoned for Abu Ghraib is former Cpl. Charles Graner Jr., who received a 10-year sentence for assault, battery, conspiracy, maltreatment, indecent acts and dereliction of duty.

Click for related content

Interrogation debate tests Obama
NYT: Gruesome origins of 'torture' tactics overlooked
Newsweek: White House sanctioned tactics, report says
NYT: Intel chief — Harsh techniques brought good info
With new name, Abu Ghraib reopens



Army documents released in May 2005 substantiated Karpinski's assertions that she was innocent of two principal allegations lodged against her by officer who initially investigated abuses at Abu Ghraib.
"From the beginning," Karpinski said, "I've been saying these soldiers did not design these techniques on their own, and the soldiers said in their own court martials that 'we didn't do this on our own. We were following orders.' "
"The line (of authority) is very clear. It was cloudy for years," Karpinski said. In an interview on CBS television, she pointed to findings that the authorization for harsh interrogation tactics originated "from the very top" in Washington and was given to military people at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere.
"Scapegoated is the perfect word," she said, "and it's an understatement." Karpinski said the Senate report is "black and white proof" that uniformed servicemen and women were not alone responsible for the abuses.

The rest is here at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30343776/page/2/

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Old 04-22-2009, 01:58 PM
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I don't think the American public needs to know how information that kept them safe was obtained...just that it kept them safe.

I personally don't care if they use bamboo in the nail beds and soaked them in water to get information...as long as I am safe, then that's all that matters to me.

I wonder how this differs much from the treatment our American soldiers have gotten when captured...or even our journalists for that matter
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:18 PM
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How did torturing Iraqis "keep me safe"?

And again, we have evidence of a crime, and the neo-con right, urges that the law not be enforced. What has happened to the Republicans? Law is now an expedience, something to be observed when wished, something for those in power to ignore if the proper excuse can be made. That rubs both ways, you sure you want to go down that road?

"Law and Order Republicans" look like they have now gone the same way as the "small government conservative".
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jplinville View Post
I don't think the American public needs to know how information that kept them safe was obtained...just that it kept them safe.

I personally don't care if they use bamboo in the nail beds and soaked them in water to get information...as long as I am safe, then that's all that matters to me.

I wonder how this differs much from the treatment our American soldiers have gotten when captured...or even our journalists for that matter
Hmm... Can't tell the players without a scorecard. Good thing we wear uniforms.
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jplinville View Post
I don't think the American public needs to know how information that kept them safe was obtained...just that it kept them safe.

I personally don't care if they use bamboo in the nail beds and soaked them in water to get information...as long as I am safe, then that's all that matters to me.

I wonder how this differs much from the treatment our American soldiers have gotten when captured...or even our journalists for that matter
I don't like to trade American values for safety.

And I don't like the government keeping information on how it acts secret from me.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jplinville View Post
I don't think the American public needs to know how information that kept them safe was obtained...just that it kept them safe.
Col. Jessup, you don't have to answer the question . . .
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:14 PM
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An op/ed piece has greater informative value than facts established at trial.

My, my.

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Old 04-22-2009, 06:49 PM
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We're playing the "Plame Game" all over again . . .

VP Cheney has publicly called for the release of classified documents that document how "enhanced interrogation" thwarted a terrorist attack on Los Angeles . . .
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:50 PM
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We're playing the "Plame Game" all over again . . .

VP Cheney has publicly called for the release of classified documents that document how "enhanced interrogation" thwarted a terrorist attack on Los Angeles . . .
It would be nice if Obama would release the whole story rather than just the portions that support his perspective.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:59 PM
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Better to lose LA than a few silly morals...........
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:12 PM
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Better to lose LA than a few silly morals...........
Exactly how many studies and investigations have there been that has shown that torture is an effective means of intelligence gathering?

Why we torture is the more important question.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:33 PM
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Saying that the actions taken at Abu Garib and Guantanamo kept us safe has absolutely no basis in fact. The world didn't get hit by a giant meteor during this time but that doesn't mean that Bush's actions had anything to do with it.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:41 PM
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Especially at Abu Graib, since the perps were court martialed and are serving time.

Whether or not it was (and is ... ) torture is a matter of argument.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:44 PM
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Exactly how many studies and investigations have there been that has shown that torture is an effective means of intelligence gathering?
There was an ex CIA fellow on Hardball tonight that flatly stated that torture only produces what you want to hear and that the CIA has obtained no valuable information that ever prevented a terrorist attack. In fact, the opposite was the case..........there was no second attack planned and the CIA and FBI were chasing blind alleys for years based upon information gathered from torturing "suspects".

All those who think torture actually produced some results ought to reanalyze their beliefs............because their belief is only supported by Dick Cheney's statements.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:45 PM
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I don't like to trade American values for safety.

And I don't like the government keeping information on how it acts secret from me.

So its better to be dead?

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