So what would you want? Someone to tell you exactly what information was tortured out of someone and how it helped? Why would they waste resources and risk bad PR if there wasn't ANY info to be had? Because we had to do something with the sadists in the military?

And the fact that you don't care for DC or the idea of torture doesn't play a role in the decision as to which side to believe? What is it these experts suggest that we do? Take the time to get accurate information that is outdated? 6 month old intel is practically worthless. Knowing where say OBL WAS 6 months ago is worthless compared to knowing where he was 2 days ago. In one case, he might be anywhere. In the 2nd case, he could be gone but it would be easier to track a fresh scent as opposed to an old one.

Based on what? Unless you can assure me that NOTHING gained from the torture sessions was of value at all and it was a waste of resources, how can you be sure?

Unless you can assure me that SOMETHING of value was gained, why should we support it? Where is the assurance that we couldn't have gotten better intel through different means?

That knife cuts both ways here too

Prior military service...I'll trust MY experts over yours

By studying other country's forms on intel gathering

How does that give us assurance that it works?
How does being ex-military give you any idea of the effectiveness of torture? Were you a torturer?

To the topic, torture is illegal under US law, that is fact. It is against the law because most people would rather our country not engage in that activity. If you are in the minority of people who think it should be legal, your efforts at changing peoples minds would probably be better spent elsewhere. Here on Shopforum, most seem to be set in their opinion, and just as you are not going to change my mind, I am not going to change yours. So we agree to disagree. Fortunately for many, the non-torturing team has the ball right now, and I say let 'em run with it.;)

Tomato/Tomato
Potato/Potato
Torture/Alternative Interrogative Method
Black/White

See the pattern here? :D

So, if you were a torturer, why would you do it? I mean, if all you get from the person is what movie is showing over at the community cinema, why would you do it? If time after time, all you get is absolute garbage, why would you go around doing something and looking like an idiot? Why would I ask you to lend me money if I know that every time I try it, I get shot down? Does that make sense to you?

Again, I'm sure you could have gotten better intel thru different means. The question is whether you get solid intel but it is outdated and worthless or not. Back before WWI, the British Admiralty used to think surface ships were the greatest. Submarines were looked down as being "un-British". There was a time where snipers were also looked down upon. Currently, we seem to think both have value.

That's fine. I don't claim infallibility on any of this, but neither your military service nor your experts support this claim:Unless your experts have first hand knowledge.

My point is not so say that I know I'm right and you are wrong. My point is that there is no basis for the people advocating torture to say that the people opposing torture are thick-headed, as was said in a previous post. There are two sides to this issue. Being against torture doesn't mean that one values our national security less than someone who thinks torture is appropriate.

Nice. What a great way to carry on a conversation.

Here's Frank Rich's opinion:I don't know if that is what happened, but the allegations are credible enough to warrant an investigation. A desire to move forward won't make allegations like that go away.

Because you're a sadist?
Because you think it will demoralize your opponent?
Because it is a fear tactic?

Torture as a method of gathering intel is far older than submarines or snipers. The debate over torture's effectiveness has gone on for centuries, and time and again, civilized cultures determine that the down side of torture outweighs the positives.

Fair enough.
How will it if you don't blow it in their face all day long? IF you don't show video of torture of others to the enemy, I doubt it would work. But if it has a hint of working, I'm for it
Whatever works.

IF it were so ineffective, why would it have gone on for centuries? Are you still debating whether the sun goes around the earth or the earth around the sun? I think there is some merit to it. Whether the positive outweighs the negatives is a question of perspective. Do you need something ASAP or can it wait. If you can wait, sure, I wouldn't bother with getting such info. OTOH, if you need it ASAP, try to get what you can now. It might not be perfect but so what? IF you were dying of thirst, do you want dirty water today or clean water next month?

If your only argument is that you can't see where it has saved American lives, you can now say that I have proven it.



http://cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=46949

Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief
http://media.eyeblast.org/resources/46950.jpg
Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles.
(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”