IMO, having lived long enough to experience America back when tariffs were used to make foreign goods more expensive so that American industries didn't fail, and then to experience "free trade", I think I liked Tariff America a whole lot better.

Ahh, now you have discovered several truths of a sort:

1. Making things that have intrinsic value creates a strong economy.
2. Service economies can't support themselves, neither can economies based on "fees"
3. Economies controlled by the marketing of useless goods to stupid or inexperienced people only enrich the marketing people and some of the people they shill for.

Other quote:
The real problem in China is what will all those people do? The Chinese government simply must find real jobs for all those people or face huge riots, and other forms of turmoil.

Solution: have them create an internal service economy.LOL Or create some controls on marketing.
All these guys who say "Let the market decide" hate to admit it, but this strategy leads to a flood of failed businesses, which the gov't is lobbied by marketing associations to "bail out."

No one wants to live with the pain so we bail everyone out.
Except the taxpayer who has no lobby power
Anyone know who that it? US...

__________________
Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

Quite the apology for business, but not true. Companies endeavor to set demand. They do set price, at least the baseline price. It is not as simple as the idea that consumers buy cheap goods because they are cheap. That is but one factor that determines what consumers buy. See pj67coll's post. He wanted to buy an American tool but couldn't find one. Companies can also manipulate price to drive consumers to a certain type of product. If the local hardware store is driven out of business by a big box store, then the consumer becomes limited to what the big box store carries.
As for the cost of the American worker, it's absolutely higher than the cost of 3rd world countries. But the auto industry is not a good example because the union's existence does not exonerate the corporate decision making.

__________________
1984 300TD

How did we ever survive without cheap Chinese goods? I don't know but somehow Americans used to buy mostly American-made stuff, and still had money to own homes and go on vacations. The money went into building a solid self-sustaining middle class and a quality of life never before seen in the world.

Apparently it worked before, and maybe it can work again. Only I don't think government tariffs can be levied since China now holds so much of our debt. It would have to be a grass-roots effort to conscientiously minimize buying or outright reject products that are made with cheap labor. Complain. Tell businesses that their actions are hollowing out the nation's core.

I remember life before CCL (Cheap Chinese Labor) and it was good. Wipe out the cheap choices so people in THIS country can go back to work and live above the poverty threshold.

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

Thats the biggest worry, since they are holding so much of that debt its not like the US can impose tariffs or deny imports of Chinese goods without some sort of backlash.....

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

You cannot apply nationalism to capitalism. Businesses simply don't care what happens to the country as long as they can make money. Nationalism is a non-factor in the pursuit of profits.

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1984 300TD

Enough people would have to get involved to make it a profit and/or image issue. If everyone starts checking labels and looking for alternatives (such as buying used) that could be sufficient to hit them in the pocketbook where it hurts.

What irks me is that the first sign of economic recovery thats being watched for is the increased consumption of goods, from you-know-where.

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

Thats not always true, more so in countries like China.

__________________
2006 CL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2026 Genesis GV70
2007 Tiara 3200

I'm no economist, but it seems to me that there are a number of factors that must be reconciled. Aside from business-cycle fluctuations, the American workforce must be near an all time high. 40 years ago working women were the the exception rather than the rule. That has changed dramatically and now almost any family needs two incomes to stay afloat.

I seem to recall hearing on the radio that American productivity keeps improving.

We all seem to be working far more hours than before.

Working class and middle class wages have stagnated over the past many years.

The disparity in wealth in the US has never been greater. Executive compensation is through the roof.

Corporate income taxes are at an historic low (I believe).

It is nearly impossible to buy American made goods in many categories. Go into Bed Bath and Beyond for housewares... EVERY item in the store is made in China. Even IKEA, that bastion of Scandinavian design and flat-pack furniture... it's most all now made in China.

We keep borrowing from China to support our economy and our wars, and our children and grandchildren will be paying for generations.

I don't know what to make of all this, but I don't think it is good.

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1987 W201 190D

So in other words....the numbers in the work force have increased, but wages haven't really gone up. Too many cheap goods flooded the market and there simply wasn't enough buying power to keep up with all the junk that was being sold.

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

What he's saying is that more Americans are working more but not earning more. There are no cheap goods flooding the market. There is less buying power, which leads to consumers needing to buy cheaper goods rather than higher cost higher quality goods.

I don't agree completely, at least until the recent economic crisis. Two income families started buying a larger variety of things. They did not focus their buying to fewer, more expensive goods, but rather more various, cheaper quality goods.


China is not capitalist.

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1984 300TD

Actually it is. But it has the massive advantage of not being a democracy.
In the past most every country that eschewed democracy chose socialism/communism as it's model, and so screwed itself over. China took a look at what was happening, realised socialism is doomed and switched (process is still ongoing) to capitalism. That is why they are now the worlds manufacturing powerhouse and the center of worlds finances is shifting to the east.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Cheap American goods. When Americans could still manufacture cheap goods better than anybody else.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

The real issue here is ; where do we go from here?
The past is the past, and we can learn from our past social & economic dynamics that brought us to this point of the increasing power of 3rd world countries;.... but seriously; we all like cheaper products our underpaid Asian servants provide for us, but we don't want the Asian lackey to be rewarded for his faithful efforts in providing the western world with his cheap service. Nor do we like the fact that hard work, diligence and thrift has paid off for our 'inferiors', especially our 'communist inferiors'. These virtues are only supposed to find reward in the western democracies.
We as humans & creatures of habit, resist change and don't like unknowns, as both are a threat to the comfortable status quo our brains & bodies love. But in reality everything in nature and is dynamic and changing; the only constant we can count on is 'change'.... (Why do you think so many hate "global warming or Global weirding""?.. because we will all have to adapt and change; just like our ice age forefathers.) Aren't you all a little annoyed by bitter older people constantly griping about everything in today's world, and how better & brighter everything was in the 1920's 1930's or 1940's or 50's? But yet the old people back in the 1920's griped about the same dang things...they didn't learn to adapt to an ever changing world.
So the question is: what do we do to adapt and thrive to this ever constant change as individuals and as a society?

NOTE:
India has 1.1 Billion customers
China has 1.3 Billion customers
2.4 billion people in 'Chindia' today. They all want a car, cell phone, computer & a house in the suburbs, small farm or a hip apartment;... just like the see in the movies.

__________________

"Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration...
don't Fail Us Now"

Another thing that happened is that there was a huge increase in real estate and stock market valuation that gave many middle class families a false sense of affluence. The 401k kept marching along, the house became worth twice what was paid for it in just a few years... so home equity loans and refinances became the way to live beyond one's means. Now that house of cards has collapsed and despite the recent bear market rally, it's going to take years for the economy to digest the displaced workers, the overstock of McMansions, the indigent retirees trying to find survival income, etc.

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1987 W201 190D