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  #1  
Old 08-13-2009, 11:55 PM
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Health Care..What the libs wont tell you...

Click on vid link..........http://www.mikerogers.house.gov/

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  #2  
Old 08-14-2009, 12:39 AM
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True Republican speak. "We're rich and have good coverage, so who cares about the poor if they don't have any."

Its a very shady system. Since members of my family work in health care, I see first hand what insurance companies do to people. Why would they want to offer the best treatment or the most treatment possible when they are a for-profit system? That is counter productive. You cannot profit from a system that has to do everything it takes to save a person. Obviously to profit they will either hugely inflate costs (which they do)...cut people (which they do)...deny procedures (which they do CONSTANTLY)....or put caps on funding for your care. All terrible things. But supposedly this is a good system. Sure, some people have amazing insurance plans that cover most anything, but they are the minority. Most people have mediocre plans that do not cover everything, or have limitations. And for people with pre-existing conditions, sorry, no insurance for you.

Employers have begun the sinister method of hiring "30 hour a week workers"...so you end up with less pay, and 0 benefits or health insurance. How clever. By Republican views they'd say "but you have a job"...sorry, that doesn't mean I get any health care.

And for all the people out of work, they get zip. Too bad if you are out of work and get sick....you're on your own....but this is OK by Republican standards.

The Republican method is real good at "as long as all of us rich people are ok and covered, who gives a care about those who are not"

We're the only developed nation that has a for-profit private health care system. We spend more than any country in the world on health care, and yet, we rank WAY down the list for quality of care and general health of the population. The leaders in healthy citizens are those with GOV health care systems...several countries in Europe. Preventative care is big in those places, its hardly even thought of here. If people lived healthier in the first place, less people would get sick. Its a viscous cycle.

People who say that "US healthcare is the best in the world" are sadly mistaken. We need huge change. Everyone should be able to take part in health care, it should not be determined by economic status or the kind of job you have.

Even I do not have health coverage right now, because in this economy I have yet to locate a full time job with benefits....most open jobs are part time, contract, or have no benefits. I am well educated (4 year degree) and am qualified to work in the technology sector....no jobs right now. So no health care. How is that fair? The private system punishes those who can't find work. People should not only be covered if they are able to find an employer that provides that for them, what a terrible system.
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  #3  
Old 08-14-2009, 12:54 AM
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Is this evidence of the best healthcare system in the world?

2008 CDC Summary:

* The U.S. infant mortality rate did not decline from 2000 to 2005.

* Data from the preliminary mortality file suggest a 2% decline in the infant mortality rate from 2005 to 2006.

* The U.S. infant mortality rate is higher than those in most other developed countries, and the gap between the U.S. infant mortality rate and the rates for the countries with the lowest infant mortality appears to be widening.

* The infant mortality rate for non-Hispanic black women was 2.4 times the rate for non-Hispanic white women. Rates were also elevated for Puerto Rican and American Indian or Alaska Native women.

* Increases in preterm birth and preterm-related infant mortality account for much of the lack of decline in the United States infant mortality rate from 2000 to 2005.
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Old 08-14-2009, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
We're the only developed nation that has a for-profit private health care system. We spend more than any country in the world on health care, and yet, we rank WAY down the list for quality of care and general health of the population. The leaders in healthy citizens are those with GOV health care systems...several countries in Europe. Preventative care is big in those places, its hardly even thought of here. If people lived healthier in the first place, less people would get sick. Its a viscous cycle.

Everyone should be able to take part in health care, it should not be determined by economic status or the kind of job you have.

Even I do not have health coverage right now, because in this economy I have yet to locate a full time job with benefits....most open jobs are part time, contract, or have no benefits. I am well educated (4 year degree) and am qualified to work in the technology sector....no jobs right now. So no health care. How is that fair? The private system punishes those who can't find work. People should not only be covered if they are able to find an employer that provides that for them, what a terrible system.
We have a 10% higher obesity rate than the next highest country. Ask any of your relatives in healthcare about obesity and the problems it can cause. Think none of this has an effect on what you are talking about?

Why? IF you can't afford something, why is it somebody elses responsibility to give it to you?

I see now why it isn't fair for you. You are one of the "have nots". Well, I can't afford a 2 million dollar mansion. How is that fair when others can? Sorry, you happen to be in an industry that is in a slump now. Bet you weren't complaining during boom times or if you were in a boom industry. When the wife came here, she had a philosophy degree. That wouldn't even be good for toilet paper. She decided to go to school for something else. Became an RN. Guess she is set for life now. Whoops. Got diagnosed with Lupus. Can't be so physical and keep it up till retirement. Went back to school to be an NP since it would be in the same lines and way less physical. Bottom line is that if your situation sucks, change it. IF your 4 yr degree is only good for toilet paper at this time, get trained in something else. If you cannot and/or will not, go without till you decide to adapt to the changing conditions. If you cannot adapt, go the way of the dinosaur when climate changed.

Edit: Before you say it, I have lived with socialized medicine, without anything and have insurance. Tomorrow, I could be back in the "without anything" category. But that would be my bad luck, bad preparedness or lack of ability or all 3 to blame. Either way, I would never want to be a parasite on somebody else. If I am not prepared enough, my fault. If I am not able enough, get able or die out. It is MY responsibility and/or my issue.
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Last edited by aklim; 08-14-2009 at 02:03 AM.
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  #5  
Old 08-14-2009, 02:48 AM
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Obesity has been brought about by the general lazyness of the population...in addition to all the artificial junk and sweeteners in our food. Other countries have laws on the wholesomeness of food. We should have the same.

I don't consider myself a "have-not", I'm doing just fine. When the economy improves, I'll find a job. That is beside the point. The point is that someone should not have to rely on an employer or on huge out of pocket spending to have health coverage. And having to depend on a system that is driven by profit and run by CEO's is even worse. Those profits and money going to line the pockets of the CEO's could be better spent on improvements to the system, treating people, and research. The private sector health care is lavish and wasteful in its modern form.

Health care should be just as much of a right as the overly cherished right to bear arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim View Post
It is MY responsibility and/or my issue.
You make a clear point of one of the biggest problems in this country. "Every man for himself". Europeans don't think that way, they support nationalized systems that make sure everyone is provided for. It leads to a better society and less problems. Its all self self self in the USA.
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Old 08-14-2009, 06:31 AM
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Even if I grant that Health Care is a Right, it doesn't automatically mean that the government must pay for.

I do have the RIGHT to assembly, but the government won't pay my travel expenses.
I do have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, but the gov. won't buy me a Glock, or a Winchester.
I have the Right to the free exercise of my religion, but the gov. won't pay my tithe, nor take me to church.

Since when does the mere granting that something might be a RIGHT mean that it doesn't have to be personally paid for?
That is a non sequitor.
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:14 AM
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You make a clear point of one of the biggest problems in this country. "Every man for himself". Europeans don't think that way, they support nationalized systems that make sure everyone is provided for. It leads to a better society and less problems. Its all self self self in the USA.[/QUOTE]
I'm so tired of hearing about how great Europe is. If you love it so much- MOVE THERE!
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:26 AM
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Even if I grant that Health Care is a Right, it doesn't automatically mean that the government must pay for...
I don't think anyone, not even Sarah Palin, denies that we all have a right to health care, at least in the sense you describe that right. If I have the means to pay for it, there is no law anywhere (not even in any of Obama's proposals) that prohibits me from getting whatever health care I want, unless that health care is illegal in some other way.

The question is not whether we have a right to health care. The question is whether we have a right to health care even when we can't pay for it. It's like the right to counsel for criminal defendants. In Gideon v. Wainwright, the Supreme Court found that it is intolerable to allow the state to convict people who can't afford a lawyer, so now indigent criminal defendants have the right to a state-provided lawyer. The debate we have now is whether it is tolerable for poor people to go without health care and whether we can afford to do something about it. It's a much tougher question than was faced in the Gideon case, IMHO.

Speaking of which, and not to hijack the thread, I highly recommend the book Gideon's Trumpet. Required reading about our criminal justice system, IMHO.
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
Obesity has been brought about by the general lazyness of the population...in addition to all the artificial junk and sweeteners in our food. Other countries have laws on the wholesomeness of food. We should have the same.

I don't consider myself a "have-not", I'm doing just fine. When the economy improves, I'll find a job. That is beside the point. The point is that someone should not have to rely on an employer or on huge out of pocket spending to have health coverage.

The private sector health care is lavish and wasteful in its modern form.

Health care should be just as much of a right as the overly cherished right to bear arms.

You make a clear point of one of the biggest problems in this country. "Every man for himself". Europeans don't think that way, they support nationalized systems that make sure everyone is provided for. It leads to a better society and less problems. Its all self self self in the USA.
Right. We need nanny because we cannot look after ourselves. First we get this "right" then we they need a nanny to watch over the kids. When does it become a right to have your butt cleaned after your dump and someone needs to make sure it is done?

Correct. You need to rely on YOU. Not the govt, not the employer. YOU. After it is YOUR health we are talking about, isn't it?

How is that wasteful? Wasteful is what the govt is doing and they are the ones you want to manage things. Remember the $400 ash trays? $200 screwdrivers?

Why? How about butt wiping? How about titty suckling? Or how bout taking care of yourself?

Why do we have to mimic the europeans? Yes they have less problems because somebody solves it for them. I live in my own house and on my own. Know all the problems I have? Most of them go away when I was living with Mom and Dad. Should I do that again so that I don't have problems? I left a comfortable situation for a harsh environment. Don't shop, no food. Don't do laundry, no clothes, etc, etc. I had all of that taken care of at home. Why would anyone leave home them? Let some other fool take care of you.
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:50 AM
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I don't think anyone, not even Sarah Palin, denies that we all have a right to health care, at least in the sense you describe that right. If I have the means to pay for it, there is no law anywhere (not even in any of Obama's proposals) that prohibits me from getting whatever health care I want, unless that health care is illegal in some other way.

The question is not whether we have a right to health care. The question is whether we have a right to health care even when we can't pay for it. It's like the right to counsel for criminal defendants. In Gideon v. Wainwright, the Supreme Court found that it is intolerable to allow the state to convict people who can't afford a lawyer, so now indigent criminal defendants have the right to a state-provided lawyer. The debate we have now is whether it is tolerable for poor people to go without health care and whether we can afford to do something about it. It's a much tougher question than was faced in the Gideon case, IMHO.


Speaking of which, and not to hijack the thread, I highly recommend the book Gideon's Trumpet. Required reading about our criminal justice system, IMHO.
That's why I posted. Thanks for the counter argument. Some things seem so intuitively "right" upon first hearing that its hard to see that there is a legitmate "other side".
That actually makes sense. Although I am not (yet) fully convinced--I am thinking it over.
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Old 08-14-2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
Even I do not have health coverage right now, because in this economy I have yet to locate a full time job with benefits....most open jobs are part time, contract, or have no benefits. I am well educated (4 year degree) and am qualified to work in the technology sector....no jobs right now. So no health care. How is that fair? The private system punishes those who can't find work. People should not only be covered if they are able to find an employer that provides that for them, what a terrible system.
Your situation is unfortunate. But not unusual. Further, I will suggest that use of part timers, temps, independent contractors, and illegals will increase as a result of health care reform.
I had lunch with a cleint the other day and we discussed health insurance. Her company provides it to all eligible employees. She's already asking questions like:
What about using temps?
At what size payroll does the proposed 8% tax kick in? (We each have heard $450,000 and later $250,000 as the threshold.)
Is 8% capped at a certain wage maximum per employee?, like FUTA is at $7,000?
...and on and on.

Two points.

1. Business owners are going to act in their best interests. Since there is no clarity yet as to specific proposals, it should come as no surprise to anyone that people will balk at saying sure, pass what you want. Ironic timing that this comes to a boil during the August recess, when these nitwits all have to face the home folks and get an earful after six months of ballooning deficit growth. People have every rational reason to be upset with being asked to sit down, shut up, and play the game without being told the rules of the game before hand. Any business owner or employee who is not concerned about what the new rules would be be before they sit at the table is, imo, foolish.

2. As I said above, it may well be that businesses will increase the use of temps, indy contractors, illegals, part timers to come in under legal limitations. If everyone has to be covererd or businesses have to pay an 8% tax, they will have a huge incentive to outsource labor from employees to consultants, part timers, etc.

In short, I can envison many ways employment can be negatively affected by the wrong type of "reform".
Example:We have two guys here that do our IT stuff through a subsidiary. They get all our benefits and are considered co-workers, although they work in a different legal entity. If the law were to change regarding employer health insurance non-taxablilty, we could easily toss them out the door and hire an IT consutant for our system maintenance, and save on health insurance, because the employer's cost and the employee's tax free fringe benefit is now the ex-employee consultant's mandtory expense!
This is just one example off the top of my head.

"The private sector punishes those that can't find work"
...that needs a little work, imo.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:10 AM
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Either way, I would never want to be a parasite on somebody else. If I am not prepared enough, my fault. If I am not able enough, get able or die out. It is MY responsibility and/or my issue.
You're driving on the road I helped pay for, you parasite. Get off!

Did you also pay for all the transmission lines, water and sewer pipes that go to your house? The satellite that your GPS uses? The park where you walk your dog? The point is that everybody pitches in for lots of different things. With roads, you pay a little tax and in return get a country full of highways that you can drive on mostly for free, and people who drive a lot exploit the system most to their advantage. Are they the parasites?

Nobody is truly self-sufficient these days. That is a fairy tale. There is lots of interdependency going on.

It's also a fact that we have the highest ratio of morbidly obese people in the world. The land of 300 pound poor people. I would possibly vote for universal coverage if more people choose to take better care of themselves, or at least try. I'm afraid there is a 'good citizen' factor involved that many people wouldn't comprehend.

The biggest problem is that new expensive procedures are possible that can save or prolong lives which would have been lost in years past. If everyone is entitled to those treatments, the system will become very expensive. However I think that everyone should be entitled to at least a free annual checkup, to catch small fixable issues before they get to be major.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:44 AM
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I agree that the 'rugged individualist' view of health care is a thing of the past. Given the expenses of modern medicine only the uber wealthy can seriously consider just paying outright from their pocket for medical services. Everyone else is going to have to rely on insurance. Insurance is by definition a version of socialism insofar as it involves a large group of people cooperating together to gain a benefit for everyone that would not otherwise be available. So, the only question that I see as relevant, is what kind of insurance system works best. In other words, what kind of socialized medicine is best.

There are some things about medical expenses that seem a complete mystery, almost as if they are completely irrational. For instance, an MRI typically costs in the US between $1k and 2K I think. My cousin in the UK was on a long waiting list for an MRI. He told me he had an option to get an MRI outside of the National Health Care system if he wanted to. I asked him how much it would cost. His answer: $150. That's right, one hundred and fifty dollars. How can a private company in the UK only charge that price when US MRI's are ten times the cost?
Similarly operating costs in the US. I had a neck surgery done a few years ago. The old standard fusion, done by any run of the mill surgeon was $30k. I had a cutting edge neck surgery done by a surgeon in demand around the world which I considered a superior surgery for $8k. Why such a huge difference in cost.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:58 AM
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How far you want to go with this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim View Post
Right. We need nanny because we cannot look after ourselves. First we get this "right" then we they need a nanny to watch over the kids. When does it become a right to have your butt cleaned after your dump and someone needs to make sure it is done?

Correct. You need to rely on YOU. Not the govt, not the employer. YOU. After it is YOUR health we are talking about, isn't it?

How is that wasteful? Wasteful is what the govt is doing and they are the ones you want to manage things. Remember the $400 ash trays? $200 screwdrivers?

Why? How about butt wiping? How about titty suckling? Or how bout taking care of yourself?

Why do we have to mimic the europeans? Yes they have less problems because somebody solves it for them. I live in my own house and on my own. Know all the problems I have? Most of them go away when I was living with Mom and Dad. Should I do that again so that I don't have problems? I left a comfortable situation for a harsh environment. Don't shop, no food. Don't do laundry, no clothes, etc, etc. I had all of that taken care of at home. Why would anyone leave home them? Let some other fool take care of you.

Using your logic, we should get rid of the Police, and Fire Departments.

Your house catches on fire? It's YOUR problem. Go hire some dweebs to put it out, or do it yourself however you can.


Hire your own security guards to protect you if you don't feel safe with no more police. Or load up your house with guns and ammunition, I don't care.


Social Darwinism is what you want. Take care of your OWN problems, and if you can't -- then STFU and suck it up.

Have 100 babies if you want them but it's YOUR problem to take care of them. If they get sick and you can't afford the money to get them well, it goes in the "not my problem" box, why should *I* pay for idiotic choices you made, I am not my brother's keeper.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
I agree that the 'rugged individualist' view of health care is a thing of the past. Given the expenses of modern medicine only the uber wealthy can seriously consider just paying outright from their pocket for medical services. Everyone else is going to have to rely on insurance. Insurance is by definition a version of socialism insofar as it involves a large group of people cooperating together to gain a benefit for everyone that would not otherwise be available. So, the only question that I see as relevant, is what kind of insurance system works best. In other words, what kind of socialized medicine is best.

There are some things about medical expenses that seem a complete mystery, almost as if they are completely irrational. For instance, an MRI typically costs in the US between $1k and 2K I think. My cousin in the UK was on a long waiting list for an MRI. He told me he had an option to get an MRI outside of the National Health Care system if he wanted to. I asked him how much it would cost. His answer: $150. That's right, one hundred and fifty dollars. How can a private company in the UK only charge that price when US MRI's are ten times the cost?
Similarly operating costs in the US. I had a neck surgery done a few years ago. The old standard fusion, done by any run of the mill surgeon was $30k. I had a cutting edge neck surgery done by a surgeon in demand around the world which I considered a superior surgery for $8k. Why such a huge difference in cost.
When we were in Germany in 2003, my mom got real sick....so my dad took her to a local medical center...within 1 hour they had checked her out, given her a prescription that cost $15, and had done a couple tests on her. Cost? Free. And she's not even a German citizen!

Here they'd have nailed you $150 for the visit, another $100 for the prescription, and probably $500 in lab tests.

When I got real sick a couple years ago and had to go to the Emergency room (back when I still had insurance)....the total bill for a 3-4 hour stay, some tests, and a IV for fluids....was....drumroll....$2800. That is insane. A couple of the tests they did on me were like $750 apiece.

The whole system is bloated and this costs have spiraled out of control.

As for the question of "if Europe is so great why don't you move there?" If I could, I would.....without hesitation.

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