Originally Posted by MTI (Post 2368094)

Yes, I constantly forget that Republicans had no participation in the Vietnam issue . . . :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Jim B. (Post 2368106)

Ever heard of "selective amnesia" ?

Originally Posted by Sev (Post 2368183)

the word liberal no longer has a meaning. people substitute it regularly for 'progressive', or far-leftist (socialist). liberal with a small L used to mean something before the far left perverted it. for the record i am neither a liberal, conservative, democrat or republican

Originally Posted by Sev (Post 2368183)

the word liberal no longer has a meaning. people substitute it regularly for 'progressive', or far-leftist (socialist). liberal with a small L used to mean something before the far left perverted it. for the record i am neither a liberal, conservative, democrat or republican

Originally Posted by Billybob (Post 2367769)

You are mischaracterizing what occurred; Nixon didn’t “finally pull the plug prior to resigning”! Nixon began removing the US from Vietnam as soon as he became president; it took some time to withdraw the ground combat troops in some “orderly” fashion, at the same time he strategically projected what power we had to increase pressure on the North Vietnamese to agree to some peaceful settlement. There was no easy way out of Vietnam once the democrats and the media decided the public did not possess the will to prevail, within the geopolitical reality of the day we probably could not have afforded a “Vietnamese Dunkirk or Gallipoli”. Nixon and Kissinger where absolutely brilliant in accomplishing what they did and how they did it when you consider the constraints and the possible alternative outcomes.

People talk about Nixon and his breakthrough opening to China, North Vietnam’s biggest supporter and defender. This was an essential element of achieving a peace agreement with North Vietnam.

“Accompanied by NSC staffers Winston Lord and John Negroponte, Kissinger met secretly in Beijing on June 20, 1972 with Chinese Prime Minister Zhou Enlai. Toward the conclusion of the four hour meeting Dr. Kissinger said to the Chinese, "And while we cannot bring a communist government to power, if, as a result of historical evolution it should happen over a period of time, if we can live with a communist government in China, we ought to be able to accept it in Indochina."

I've no lost love for Nixon the man, but to not give his and Kissinger's geopolitical understanding, insight and skill their due is foolish.

Originally Posted by Billybob (Post 2366433)

A couple weeks ago according to Comrade Chris the US Military Academy at West Point was the "enemy camp", then about ten days ago while commiserating with fellow travelers Salon.com’s Joan Walsh and AOL PoliticsDaily.com/ NYTimes/Huffingtonpost.com’s Melinda Henneberger; he removes all doubt when he states “It`s complicated when liberals get to keep score. We`re always arguing. Well, I`m a liberal, too. You are watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC. “

Originally Posted by tonkovich (Post 2368893)

uh, perhaps, if you knew of kissinger's double dealing (sabatoging lbj and negotiating a secret deal with nixon) in '68, which scuttled the paris peace talks, and his (and the u.s. government's) agreement to exactly the same terms four? five? years (and thousands of lives lost) later, you would have a different view of both those wonderful americans. for the record, lbj was too chickens**t to pull out before the 66 midterms (listen to the tapes) - kissinger is an evil man and war criminal, starting with vietnam, then chile, and on and on, and nixon talked tough on vietnam and is responsible for many deaths, cynically doing anything to get into office and then get re-elected.

as to the "north" vietnam - china connection, you might note the brief border war between those two in the mid '70's, after the unification of north and south vietnam.

the vietnamese were fighting-for a thousand years- to free themselves from occupation. from the chinese, the japanese, the french and then the americans.

Originally Posted by tonkovich (Post 2368893)

uh, perhaps, if you knew of kissinger's double dealing (sabatoging lbj and negotiating a secret deal with nixon) in '68, which scuttled the paris peace talks, and his (and the u.s. government's) agreement to exactly the same terms four? five? years (and thousands of lives lost) later, you would have a different view of both those wonderful americans. for the record, lbj was too chickens**t to pull out before the 66 midterms (listen to the tapes) - kissinger is an evil man and war criminal, starting with vietnam, then chile, and on and on, and nixon talked tough on vietnam and is responsible for many deaths, cynically doing anything to get into office and then get re-elected.

as to the "north" vietnam - china connection, you might note the brief border war between those two in the mid '70's, after the unification of north and south vietnam.

the vietnamese were fighting-for a thousand years- to free themselves from occupation. from the chinese, the japanese, the french and then the americans.

Originally Posted by Billybob (Post 2369080)

Uh' perhaps if it where true! Surely a scholar such as you is capable of documenting a fact of two contained in this thus far completely unsubstantiated allegation? You know just little things like a timeline and an explanation as to what position Kissinger occupied that gave him the capacity to "sabotage" LBJ, maybe even the nature and extent of the "secret deal" with Nixon. But you'll have to do better than LBJ "of Tonkin Gulf fame/credibility" talking to someone on the phone and a line or two in one of his co-conspirators books though!

As to the "north" vietnam - china connection, you might note the brief border war between those two in the mid '70's, after the unification of north and south vietnam.”

So you are attempting to compare and contrast the material, manpower, and political support which the PRC provided and that the North Vietnamese enjoyed for more than a decade with this relatively insignificant border skirmish to make what point?

Originally Posted by Billybob (Post 2369080)

Uh' perhaps if it where true! Surely a scholar such as you is capable of documenting a fact of two contained in this thus far completely unsubstantiated allegation? You know just little things like a timeline and an explanation as to what position Kissinger occupied that gave him the capacity to "sabotage" LBJ, maybe even the nature and extent of the "secret deal" with Nixon. But you'll have to do better than LBJ "of Tonkin Gulf fame/credibility" talking to someone on the phone and a line or two in one of his co-conspirators books though!

As to the "north" vietnam - china connection, you might note the brief border war between those two in the mid '70's, after the unification of north and south vietnam.”

So you are attempting to compare and contrast the material, manpower, and political support which the PRC provided and that the North Vietnamese enjoyed for more than a decade with this relatively insignificant border skirmish to make what point?

Originally Posted by Emmerich (Post 2367524)

If you think Nazism, Communism and Marxism are the same, you need to go back to school.

Originally Posted by JollyRoger (Post 2374161)

You entirely miss the point. My comment is sarcastic, directed at the Glenn Beck/Limbaugh mindset that has poisoned the Republican Party, like ole Billy Bob demonstrates so well here. At any given moment, according to America's conservative mouth pieces, Democrats and Obama are Fascists, or Nazis, or Communists, or Marxists, seen here applied to Chris Matthews. Hyperbolic-tic nonsense, poisoning the national debate.