Buying an aircraft to train in? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rwthomas1 · #1 02-26-2010, 01:33 PM

Any aircraft owners here? I know there are a few kicking about so I have to ask.... My wife and I have talked about getting our Private Pilots License for a few years now and the talking has gotta a whole lot more serious. Looking into the local flight schools the cost will run $7-8K per person.

With that kind of coin being spent the thought of just buying an aircraft for training purposes seems to make sense. I have sorta settled on a used Piper Cherokee (PA28) in the $20K-$30K range. I have checked on Insurance, have a CFI that is willing to train in my aircraft, tiedown at a local private strip, etc. It all seems to be pretty straightforward. Looking at the costs, spreadsheets, etc. on the internet owning/operating should be about $10K per year, not including the payment on the aircraft itself. Financially this is not a problem.

If I include the cost of the CFI the total figure is just a bit higher than paying for flight school for two, and we OWN the aircraft!

So pilots/owners, is there any reason not to do this?

RT

Pooka · #2 02-26-2010, 01:44 PM

I knew a fellow who did this many years ago and he made the deal pay by hooking up with a school that rented his aircraft out to other students.

I think he also was able to depreciate the aircraft which helped to offset the income from the rentals.

It was all rather complicated and may not work for you. You might speak to a tax pro on this as this was about 30 years ago and the tax codes might have changed.

hill · #3 02-26-2010, 01:49 PM

Best advice I heard was "If it flies, floats or f***s rent it"

rwthomas1 · #4 02-26-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hill

Best advice I heard was "If it flies, floats or f***s rent it"

Yeah, too late.... I'm already MARRIED and own a BOAT! Just making sure I'm triple screwed

RT

KarTek · #5 02-26-2010, 01:56 PM

I'm in the midst of flight training and I looked very hard at doing the same thing myself. With all the associated costs, insurance, etc... it's very expensive to own a plane. As an average wage earner, I pretty much determined that I would have to give up every other hobby I have and concentrate on flying if I were to buy a plane.

Since that time, I've halted my training until I get some other areas of my life in order and I can give it my full attention. At that time, I may look again at my own plane.

I'm also surprised at the numbers you're quoting. I wouldn't think dual training in a C-150 should be more than about $100/hr and that's on the high side. If it takes 80 hours (twice the required) then you're getting up there at that point.

Also, if you're just looking at flying recreationally, you might want to look at a Light-Sport rating which can be had for cheaper. I flew a German made LSA back a year or so ago and was very impressed with the build quality and "tight" feel to the craft.

These are my personal experiences and they may not be representitive of the current GA environment.

As a PS: I'm also a long time boat owner and have made the determination that since I'm not at the lake at least a couple times a week like I was when I was in my 20's, they all have to go. It's much cheaper in the long run to rent...

As a second edit, here's the prices for the flight school I'm using. It's higher than I quoted but still not too bad:

http://www.empire-aviation.com/flight-school/costs.html

I guess the cost is more than I remember from a few years ago since fuel went up so much.

hill · #6 02-26-2010, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Yeah, too late.... I'm already MARRIED and own a BOAT! Just making sure I'm triple screwed

RT

Being a little hard on yourself. Wives are different than hookups.

WVOtoGO · #7 02-26-2010, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Just making sure I'm triple screwed

RT

And that you are. Like you would not believe possible.

Give me a minute or so to get out of my Simon Cowell frame of mind here and I'll try to post a few things you may wish to consider.

Stand by.

rwthomas1 · #8 02-26-2010, 03:02 PM

In defense of my wife, she knows I'm only kidding when I make comments. I treat her like gold and likewise. Shes the one that wants the big boat and an aircraft that actually will go places. LSA is nice, if it was just me then maybe, but the PPL is the way to go for even our most basic plans. I'd be happy with a daysailer and an ultralight.... RT

Mistress · #9 02-26-2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Yeah, too late.... I'm already MARRIED and own a BOAT! Just making sure I'm triple screwed

RT

me hopes the mrs. isn't reading this....I'm still in the process of getting my license and while the fantasy of owning a plane is sweet I just can't afford it. WVO is probably the best person to pm. I like the Cessna 172 and love the Diamond DA20. Piper Meridian is the dream machine...

WVOtoGO · #10 02-26-2010, 05:32 PM

Here’s that Simon Cowell thing I spoke of (smile with me here)

:

“It all seems to be pretty straightforward.”

The first thing that came to mind when I read that statement, was that you obviously don’t have a good clean grasp of what “It” is.

Trust me. Few things in flight training (or general aviation for that matter) are “straightforward”.
The only true given in flight training is that Martha King will have you climbing the walls prior to climbing into the cockpit. Mistress will back me up here, I sent her the tapes and still feel bad for doing so. Nobody desrves that.

“…is there any reason not to do this?”
Good lord, dude. There isn’t enough bandwidth for me to list the reasons not to do this.

With that said and please don’t take offense, I just don’t wish to see you make the same mistake I’ve seen soooo many folks make in the past.
Owning your own aircraft does sound romantic. And it is. We’ve got a nice fleet here and I love them all. But for initial training... well...let’s start here:

What kind of PA28 are you getting into for 20-30K? Obviously a -140,-160 or maybe a worn out -180. All of 1960’s maybe early 70's vintage. I’m not saying there aren’t any nice PA28’s out there, but for 20-30K you’d best be looking real closely at not only what it’s costing you, but what it’s about to cost you in the near future and what it will cost you for it to do what you expect of it. TBO, radios and instruments are coming to mind here, screaming. Not to mention the next 100hr or annual could be the one with all the surprises, like gear OHs, tires, prop ADs, etc. You better find a good general aviation A&P/IA to do one hell of a pre-buy and AD/SB search on it before you buy.

What does the insurance company say about the owner not being a licensed pilot?
Sure they know you will have an IP onboard as PIC, but what about when you’ve soloed? You're still a student pilot. Better ask now.

What research have you done regarding the actual TOC (Total operating cost) of that particular model PA28? Some things may surprise you. “That particular Lycoming 360 (more like a 320, and God forbid you get into an O320-H2AD) has a much higher than average OH cost.” is not something you want to hear after you’ve bought the aircraft. Research is everything. And don’t just pass the engine off as a good one from simple compression test results.
How about gear struts? Did the previous owner train in it? If so – Think “Ouch”. What’s a strut OH cost (x3)? Is it the PA28-160 with the crappy engine mount? Again – Research is everything.

What’s are real fuel consumption numbers for flight training? Nothing like the manual states, that’s for sure. Going around the pattern is like city driving compared to open highway when it comes to fuel burn. Make sure you don’t kid yourself on fuel consumption and/or costs.

What about storage? Inside or out? How long is the lease? And where are you going to store it when the lease runs out and you can’t renew? (Always assume the worst when talking hangar/tie-down space. The owner always has a friend they want to lease your hangar to.) Storage always brings you back to the insurance company again too. Makes a big difference in coverage/costs.
What’s it going to cost you to drive to the airplane if it’s not where you originally planned on the lessons? What’s the IP going to charge if he/she has to drive further?

What if, for some unforeseen reason you have to stop your training. Many of the (big) costs of ownership don’t stop. That’s usually not the time to be forced into a position where you have to unload an aircraft.

There’s quite a few other thoughts to cover but this is a good start for ya.

My bottom line is this: For 15 to 20K for the both of you to get certified. That’s not bad. Go the rental route for the training for sure. With today’s economy, see if they will give you a fixed rate for the both of you at 60hrs each. Also look into (if you’re training in a 4-place aircraft) logging your (hers and yours) hours as observer time. The FAA examiners love to see this and you’ll be getting additional education for free while the other one is doing the flying/lesson. That’s HUGE.

You’ll have far more than enough to worry about and concentrate on without all the issues of aircraft ownership. Once you get your license(s), then sit down and figure out what you want in an aircraft. I’d be willing to bet big money that if you buy a PA28 or a C150 or 172 now, by the time your done training in it, you will have outgrown it as well. Not to mention, you’ll just be tired of it. And kicking yourself over what it wound up actually costing you too. And for what? A worn out Cherokee on the verge of a TBO that cost more than the thing is worth to start with.

On the otherside of the coin. If I may:
What Pooka said is sound advise and a good idea to look into if you just have to own an aircraft now. As he stated though, it is very complicated. Trust me, I’ve been there more than once. Flight hour block time agreements. Maintenance agreements. Insurance coverage agreements. Unforeseen maintenance requirement agreements. Personal usage agreements. Lots-o-lawyer fun for sure. Think headaches comparable only to those induced by Martha King here. Not to mention whether or not a flight school wants to use your vintage Cherokee to start with. All of their liability issues, insurance provider issues….
What I hated most was when someone else jacked up your airplane (and they will) and you had to suffer through not having it, not having any income from it, and having to fix it too.
“Agreed DOC minus fuel” is all most training FBOs want to pay you to use your plane. And trust me, they wont cover some student of theirs busting your gear or hitting your prop on a solo flight without a big stink. If at all.

toomany MBZ · #11 02-26-2010, 05:48 PM

A friend has a 1977 Piper Cherokee with the Lycoming 180. He paid around $50,000 a few years ago. He spends roughly $3500 a year, that's all costs. Not including the cost of the plane. Insurance, annual inspection, runs $700 here. He rents a hanger.

WVOtoGO · #12 02-26-2010, 06:08 PM

That’s not too bad. But I’d be willing to bet you aren’t getting the whole story.

And, let’s factor in: Student pilot insurance vs. licensed. Their usage vs. his.
Gear overhauls and a TBO cost that he probably had in the 50K vs. their ~25k. (There’s a lot to be said for a 50K Pa28 vs. a 20/30K one.) And what kind of rental spaces and maintenance bases are available in central VA vs. Wakefield, RI?

As for: “Insurance, annual inspection, runs $700 here.” I’d say he has very close friends in the maintenance and insurance business.

The labor for that annual is over 700. (That, or he's found a pencil-whip'r.)

I'm not trying to be the party pooper here. Just food for thought before anyone makes a big commitment.

toomany MBZ · #13 02-26-2010, 07:58 PM

The inspection runs $700 a year, don't know the insurance fee, sorry for the confusion.
He's a licensed pilot, not training to become one.
Yes, there are going to be cost differences depending on location.
I'm sure the OP will investigate nearby costs.

WVOtoGO · #14 02-26-2010, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toomany MBZ

The inspection runs $700 a year, don't know the insurance fee, sorry for the confusion.
He's a licensed pilot, not training to become one.
Yes, there are going to be cost differences depending on location.
I'm sure the OP will investigate nearby costs.

700 is low for the labor cost alone on a PA28-180 annual inspection. He's getting a super deal (or a bad inspection) for that money. Keep in mind, an annual is more than just an inspect and replace/repair as necessary (IRAN as we call it). Hope it isn't the latter.

You're dead on there. Or at least I hope so.

I hate coming across as the party pooper on this one. I love aviation. Have lived it my entire life. I love to see folks get into it as well as get their own aircraft. Everyone’s wants, needs, abilities and such are always different though.

I just don’t want to hear about anyone regretting an aircraft purchase. I’ve seen that happen so many times in this same “for training purposes” situation.

I can only hope that maybe something stated here will at least draw attention to issues they may not have considered.

Either way, the final decision is theirs. And, I, Darby and/or Shelby will be more than happy to help them out with their search should they decide to proceed at this time.

pawoSD · #15 02-26-2010, 08:47 PM

I'd rather have a boat, when the engine fails you're just sitting in the water, not falling from the sky!