http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/23/would-obama-dems-kill-401k-plans.html

Awww crap!

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2006 BMW M5 "Heidi" @ 109,000 miles
2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)

Crap indeed. I know several people that have been or are in the financial and banking industry - for the past two years they've been telling me that something along this line was at least being considered. Part of the 3% return would come from mandatory investment in government and treasury bonds - Chinese won't buy them any more, so let's force our own citizens to buy them.

And the rate of return isn't the worst part either - according to my financial friends, the government would also decide just how much of that money you'd be allowed to have back when you did retire - providing they don't pull another Social Security deal and spend it all in the meantime.

I just hope that even Congress isn't loony enough to go for this one, that this hearing is as far as this nonsense will get.

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Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club

Well something needs to be done about social security, and retirement. Most Americans do not save enough or plan for it. A forced retirement plan would remove the burden from people like me who are stuck paying 15% of my income into SS to keep old people off the streets. It would also remove the burden from companies that are forced to pay for retirement.

Also since most citizens won't vote these overspending morons out of office, well someone has to pay for them. Maybe this will spur the half of this country thats to lazy to vote into voting.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

They'll do it as long as they can exempt themselves from it!

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Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

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Well, I could make the opposing argument that if you weren't paying that 15% into SS, if your parents hadn't saved enough for retirement, you'd instead be paying it directly to them to help keep them up in their old age. But that's another kettle of fish for another day.

At that, from what I've learned over the years, when first envisioned SS was never intended to be the SOLE source of income for retirement, but as a safety net last-resort backstop, in economic times such as these, so that when all else failed people at least had SOMETHING to fall back on. Instead, over the decades, people's attitudes have changed such that they use Social Security as an excuse NOT to save more for retirement.

A forced retirement plan, if poorly set up and administered, could have the same effect and even worse consequences - people will be expecting their retirement to be taken care of by the government, even more so than with SS, and what happens if the government "borrows" all the money as they did with SS, such that when the time comes people suddenly find out they have nothing to retire on, or the government drastically cuts back on what they promised to pay per month way back when?

As far as companies being forced to pay for their employees retirement, other than those dealing with union contracts, you could probably count on your fingers the number of companies that still offer anything resembling a pension if not forced to do so by contract. Order of the day is pretty much a voluntary 401K program. And last I heard less than 10% of the work force still belongs to anything resembling a union - although that may change if SEIU has anything to say about it.

I'm 51, and I came to the conclusion about 15 years ago that SS was NOT going to be there when I decided to retire or was too old to work any more. I've made plans and tried to save in accordance with that decision. Beginning to look like that was a wise decision. Now, it looks even less likely than it did back then, that SS will still be viable in 15 to 20 years.

As far as people finally being motivated to get off their butts and vote and do something about this entire mess, we can only hope.

__________________
Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club

I'm not for it at all.

SS started out as a way for poor people to die with dignity. Originaly you couldn't start collecting until about when you were going to die. I still think they need to raise it with the life expectancy.

The problem is now its being used as a safety net/retirement for everyone.

If people want that the government is going to have to create another program and jack up taxes to European levels to pay for it. I'm not in favor of that in the least.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Agreed in full. For my birthdate, I believe my eligibility for drawing "full" benefits now stands at something like 67 1/2. Speaking only for myself, I'd be willing to see that jacked up by a few years based on life expectancy, if that meant the system would be kept viable and available for those not as fortunate as myself.

My mother is 72 and still works part time. Partly to have something to do to keep from "getting old", and also to have another source of income and money saved up in case SS does go TU - she has even less trust of politicians than I do, and doesn't like having to rely solely on the "word" of our government.

As far as European tax levels - that's what struck me about the whole HC catfight - some people kept throwing up that we were the only first-world country that didn't have universal health care - well, duuhhh, that's also one of the reasons we have one of the LOWEST tax rates of the first world countries.

__________________
Just say "NO" to Ethanol - Drive Diesel

Mitchell Oates
Mooresville, NC
'87 300D 212K miles
'87 300D 151K miles - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD 67K miles
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club

It seems inevitable that the eligability age for SS will have to be increased significantly. Having people choose to retire at 65 and live to 85 just doesn't work if they need to be supported by a government program. Maybe the eligability age should be indexed to average life expectancy.

I believe it is inevitable.

I predicted that the government would try to steal any account labeled IRA, 401k or anything like it, over 20 years ago. Don't think it can happen? Ask all the folks who were depending on the railroad retirement fund.

Company pensions funds are not only for retirement benifits. Companies can, and do, use them to stash profits tax free.

I remember one year the company I was with, and now draw a pension from, made $6 Billion in profit. We were all very happy about this, and I commented to the CEO that we could have made more if the price of oil had not dropped to about $20 a bbl. that year. He pointed out we did make more but we had stashed about $3 billion in the pension fund. If we ever had a bad year we could pull money out of it so our stock would not tank.

None of this is done in secret, though. It is in the annual report if you just know where to look.

Safeway Stores had a large pension fund that was looted by some new owners. They bought Safeway for about $500 mil, sold off enough real estate to make that back and cleaned out the pension fund of the excess cash not needed to fund pensions. I think they cleared $500 mill on the deal. That is the simple version; you can likely find the complete story on line.

They then used these profits to buy a chain of movie theaters just when video tape was getting big. They lost $500 mill on that deal, so I guess that proves you can't win them all.

But many big companies, including the one I was with, no longer offer new hires pensions. I don't know what changed, but I guess it is working out for them.

So lets say that the US government did come after the 401Ks of everyone.
What would you do?

I only have about $5.5K in a Roth IRA right now. I got to put that in when I was interning with a company here in GA. Since I have been working on finishing my degree, and been a student since then, I cannot contribute to my IRA until I get employed again as far as I remember. (Is this correct?)

There are big penalties if you withdraw from an IRA or 401K early or before it is allowed. So if the US government were to try to takeover our 401Ks and IRAs, there might be a large exodus of funds from these accounts. At the same time, the government would get lots of tax money in the form of early withdrawal penalties right? So for the government its a win win situation right?

Since I do not yet have a 401K and only about 5.5K in an IRA, with the way things are going, would you abandon the IRA and not go for a 401K benefit from your future employer? How can I take retirement into my own hands?

(This is all based on an assumption that the U.S. government is indeed planning a takeover of 401Ks, which I would assume extend to IRAs shortly afterward.)

__________________
2006 BMW M5 "Heidi" @ 109,000 miles
2005 MBZ C55 AMG "Lorelai" @ 165,000 miles
1991 MBZ 300E "Benzachino II" @ 165,000 miles
1990 MBZ 500SL "Shoshanna" @ 118,000 miles

(On the hunt for a good used M103 engine as of 6/10/23, PM me if you have one to sell!)

Dated Oct, 2008 ? My, you just love current events. Tell me, just how far did that one person's ideas fly over the past two years ? It never got off the ground you said? There is a little problem called the "5th Amendment", and the chances if it being amended are about as big as the Republicans stopping healthcare ? Oh. Nevermind.

Don't you get it? Just another RWNJ attempt to create stupid internet rumors that are worth about as much as a bootfull of pigeon poop.

Just to relieve ya'lls paranoia, I quote the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution:


No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

I would change my meds.