Anyone here attend a school which assigns an XF grade in the case of cheating or plagiarism? What are people's opinions about XF's? Seems like there is an important distinction between an F and a failure for lack of academic integrity?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I've actually never heard of them. Is there a burden of proof and an appeals process?

What did you do

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

Kerry is on the other side.

I've been in enough classes (usually general prerequisites) where the majority of the class was cheating in some degree. They have no interest in the subject matter, won't use it, and have a 2% or less a few weeks after finals.

I never did it on tests or quizzes (other than getting tips on what essays were being asked etc.) but I've seen some full blown sophisticated operations for cheating here. Homework I could have cared less about.

All I can say now is thank god I'm finished. I knew since middle school that the classroom was not for me. I was always a worker bee. Since having a degree seems like a requirement for any job nowadays I'm glad I got one. Since I retained my college office job, and started up my own business with my new free time since graduating, I guess I didn't really need it now. Maybe later.

I don't understand why a college would want to start something like that. They've become money machines, lowering the standards so pretty much any idiot can sleep/cheat through college and come out with a LAS degree. Engineering, Sciences, Business, etc. is a different story.

__________________
1985 500SL Euro w/ AMG bits 130k
1984 300SD Turbodiesel 192k
1980 240D Stick China 188k
2001 CLK55 AMG 101k
2007 S600 Biturbo 149k Overheated Project, IT'S ALIVE!!!

Kerry,
A few years ago down here a student hacked into a system & stole a number of exam papers for year 12 final exams. These are a state wide thing for university entrance. They caught about 30 students using them. The main offenders were prosecuted in a very public manner as they were adults (18 year olds). Basically they said good bye to ever being accepted into any University studies in Australia. It sent a very loud & clear message to all, that those exams were off limits.
I would not consider some one for employment that had been caught for that sort of dishonesty.
In your case (I assume), I would be asking the applicant for an explanation. If they are not honest & remorseful, tell them to go jump !!

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

Yes, there is typically a burden of proof and appeals process. Colleges would want to do it because in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, colleges are not just money machines. I agree that employers would not want to hire dishonest people. I've no knowledge of any prosecutions for cheating in the US.
I had never heard of the grade until last week, but the minute I heard about it, I said, "Yes!"

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Sounds OK to me if it's implemented fairly and a high standard of proof is required to give that grade.

you get caught cheating you should be marked. It's academic dishonesty and is not something you would want in an employee.

Joe Biden?

Your school may be smaller and have less selection than mine did, but the teachers that seem to care that the students actually learn the subject matter, and challenge them with a good amount of reading, papers, or homework were easy enough to avoid. We could just find a grad student teaching a class or another professor who could have cared less. Its disgusting how many classes I got through without ever cracking open the book, skipping the lectures regularly, and never studying more than 30 minutes before a test. I'm also guilty of dropping classes where the teacher cared too much that we learn a subject I had little to no interest in.

A good friend of mine who is also a college professor with very high drop rates because of how challenging she is described it as, "They want us to lower the bar to the floor in hopes they can trip over it." She actually had pressure put on from her superiors to dumb it down.

What's worse? Coasting your way through school doing the bare minimum and graduating with a 2.8GPA like I did or cheating your way through? Both have the same result. Money in exchange for a mystical piece of paper that promises prosperity with little knowledge or skill gained. Who cares; they aren't going to remember the vast majority of the material if they aren't going to use it. What percentage of people got ahead in life being honest vs. dishonest? I'm fairly certain I haven't lied to a single person I've sold a car to yet, but I think about 8/10 cars I've purchased through individuals or dealers over the years have been dishonest to me in some way. They got ahead at my expense.

If someone cheats in a program where they are learning a marketable skill they are only damaging themselves.

Also, since when does a potential employer look over a transcript? They look for a resume with a good employment history and a degree. The end.

__________________
1985 500SL Euro w/ AMG bits 130k
1984 300SD Turbodiesel 192k
1980 240D Stick China 188k
2001 CLK55 AMG 101k
2007 S600 Biturbo 149k Overheated Project, IT'S ALIVE!!!

I'm guessing I'm like your friend. I ask, 'What am I here for?' Am I here to give people a piece of paper after taking x amounts of credit, or am I here so that individuals can learn? I think the latter. So my judgment about whether a student learns or not is important to me. I don't use that judgment lightly and I expect to be able to exercise that judgment reasonably. Cheating stops that from happening so I want policies that consistently try to limit it.

In your case, I would have recommended you drop out of school. There is a fair amount of evidence that simply having a degree does nothing for a person. I think you wasted your money and time which could have been better spent doing something else.

I do look closely at transcripts when I am in a position to hire someone but I think you're correct that most people don't. I can't imagine why. I've run into people who didn't seem to think there was a difference between a person who earned D's in their area of expertise and people who earned A's.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I suppose you could patch and paste anything you needed for an independent assignment from the internet. Sign of the times I suppose. No need to copy from the guy next to you !
Sooner or later kids have to learn that actions have consequences. Enforced fairly, I have no problem with it.

Has the ACLU filed suit anywhere on this yet ??

Here's Maryland's code

http://www.shc.umd.edu/code.html


and "OU" (Oklahoma?)

http://integrity.ou.edu/legislation/xF_Grade.pdf

On a related point. I know parents who write their children's k-12 school papers for them and see absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. They claim they know a number of parents who do this including parent's of children at nationally recognized private schools. They say that if they didn't write the papers, the student either wouldn't write the paper or can't write the paper at a level necessary to get a passing grade. Boggles my mind.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

School cheating boggles my mind. I loved the competition and it gets even better when you get to the higher level classes. Other great scholars' success made me work all the harder. I had a lot of fun and learned how to deal with utter frustration and the the joy success. I'm still doing it today while in grad school, but will be graduating soon...

__________________
'07 Yukon 2500
'13 Subaru Outback 3.6R
'13 Orbea Carpe 9-speed

Currently Benzless
Formerly: 300TD, S600, E55, 560SEL

---= The forest breathes, listen.
-Native American elder

If the elite colleges these students are frantically trying to attend had a zero tolerance policy.. "You're caught & Your'e out"... like they have for fraternity party drinking, etc., things would change pretty quickly. Might take a generation or so for that mindset to trickle down to secondary education.
I am not holding my breath however.

No three strike policy. One and done. End of story.