how far will a ship roll without capsizing? - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

alamostation · #61 04-12-2011, 11:51 PM

Just from a simple understanding of physics, it seem that 45 degrees is the limit, with a few exceptions. If the ship goes beyond 45 degrees for more than a few seconds, it is top-heavy and will turn turtle.

One possible exception is a small craft with a heavy keel that gets hit with a large broadside wave. This could push the boat over beyond 45 degrees yet the keel weight could bring the boat upright.

dlevitt · #62 04-13-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alamostation

Just from a simple understanding of physics, it seem that 45 degrees is the limit, with a few exceptions. If the ship goes beyond 45 degrees for more than a few seconds, it is top-heavy and will turn turtle.

One possible exception is a small craft with a heavy keel that gets hit with a large broadside wave. This could push the boat over beyond 45 degrees yet the keel weight could bring the boat upright.

It's never that simple. The righting moment varies with the angle of heel, and for many warship hull forms reaches a maximum at about 45 degrees, but is still significant at higher inclinations.

All gun design tin cans [Gearing, Fletcher, Adams] would typically lose their gun mounts at about 55 degree rolls. Removing the topside weight would increase the righting moment [GC moves lower, greater buoyancy, reduced displacement] and hopefully the ship will recover. [bad news for the Gunner's Mates manning the mounts]

t walgamuth · #63 04-13-2011, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlevitt

It's never that simple. The righting moment varies with the angle of heel, and for many warship hull forms reaches a maximum at about 45 degrees, but is still significant at higher inclinations.

All gun design tin cans [Gearing, Fletcher, Adams] would typically lose their gun mounts at about 55 degree rolls. Removing the topside weight would increase the righting moment [GC moves lower, greater buoyancy, reduced displacement] and hopefully the ship will recover. [bad news for the Gunner's Mates manning the mounts]

I wondered about the guns falling out increasing the righting tendency of the rolling ship.

WVOtoGO · #64 04-13-2011, 04:47 PM

Jeezzzz 60some-odd posts for one question.

How far can a ship role without capsizing?

To just shy of the point at which it does capsize, silly. Everyone knows that.

Just like, people ask me how close to the ground can I fly.
Well. To just shy of the point at which I’m touching it.

t walgamuth · #65 04-13-2011, 06:01 PM

Hello!

I've missed you lately.

Welcome back!

Mistress · #66 04-13-2011, 07:00 PM

depends on how far everyone is leaning to one side!

GTStinger · #67 04-15-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlevitt

All gun design tin cans [Gearing, Fletcher, Adams] would typically lose their gun mounts at about 55 degree rolls. Removing the topside weight would increase the righting moment [GC moves lower, greater buoyancy, reduced displacement] and hopefully the ship will recover. [bad news for the Gunner's Mates manning the mounts]

Physics sounds right. Did this ever happen to a WWII era destroyer at sea? My couriosity would love to read about it.

BobK · #68 05-11-2011, 03:21 PM

Finally had dinner with Dad last night and got to ask him about his experience. He said he was at the helm one time and saw a huge wave headed for them broadside. As the ship rolled with the wave he turned and looked at the gauge (clinometer) and saw the ship go to 52 degrees. Easier to walk on the bulkhead than on the deck.
That was on the USS Jeffers DD621/DMS27, A Gleaves/Livermore/Bristol class tin can. Side note this ship served at the invasion of Normandy-Utah beach. One of her sister ships, USS Corry DD463, also Bristol class was also at Utah and was sunk when the plane making screening smoke for her was shot down, leaving her exposed to the German 210mm guns. One crew member raised the flag from her main mast and this stayed above water as she sank in only about 30 feet deep water.

sjh · #69 05-11-2011, 05:04 PM

I saw a photo montage of small fishing boat lose control while approaching a low drawbridge that failed to raise.

The boat rolled as it came in contact with the outer limits of the bridge. The current continued to push the boat. The boat continued to roll as it passed under the bridge and completed the 360 while coming out the other side.

If I can recall where I saw it I'll post a link.

my83300cd · #70 05-11-2011, 06:48 PM

http://www.ussnewjersey.com/vol2-12.pdf

Some descriptions of Halsey's task force 38 going throught the December '44 typhoon, with comments on roll angle and some photos.

t walgamuth · #71 05-11-2011, 07:19 PM

Wow! That was great!

The largest angle was estimated at 80 degrees without capsizing. It appears that there are several things that hurt the ships lost:
1. Inability to jettison high deck weight because of lack of warning of the stom.
2. Lack of water ballast because storm came up before they were able to take it on.
3. Lack of fuel for running and for ballast.

I may have some of the facts a little wrong but that seems close.

chazola · #72 05-12-2011, 07:50 AM

reminds me of this (taken from Wiki):

"In December 1942, Queen Mary was carrying 16,082 American troops from New York to Great Britain, a standing record for the most passengers ever transported on one vessel.[17] While 700 miles (1,100 km) from Scotland during a gale, she was suddenly hit broadside by a rogue wave that may have reached a height of 28 metres (92 ft). An account of this crossing can be found in Walter Ford Carter's book, No Greater Sacrifice, No Greater Love. Carter's father, Dr. Norval Carter, part of the 110th Station Hospital on board at the time, wrote that at one point Queen Mary "damned near capsized... One moment the top deck was at its usual height and then, swoom! Down, over, and forward she would pitch." It was calculated later that the ship tilted 52 degrees, and would have capsized had she rolled another 3 degrees.[18] The incident inspired Paul Gallico to write his story, The Poseidon Adventure, which was later made into a film by the same name, using Queen Mary as a stand-in for SS Poseidon.
During the war, Queen Mary carried British Prime Minister Winston Churchill across the Atlantic for meetings with fellow Allied forces officials on several occasions, he would be listed on the passenger manifest as "Colonel Warden"[19] and insisted that the lifeboat assigned to him be fitted with a .303 machine gun so that he could "resist capture at all costs".

dynalow · #73 05-12-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobK

Finally had dinner with Dad last night and got to ask him about his experience. He said he was at the helm one time and saw a huge wave headed for them broadside. As the ship rolled with the wave he turned and looked at the gauge (clinometer) and saw the ship go to 52 degrees. Easier to walk on the bulkhead than on the deck.
That was on the USS Jeffers DD621/DMS27, A Gleaves/Livermore/Bristol class tin can. Side note this ship served at the invasion of Normandy-Utah beach. One of her sister ships, USS Corry DD463, also Bristol class was also at Utah and was sunk when the plane making screening smoke for her was shot down, leaving her exposed to the German 210mm guns. One crew member raised the flag from her main mast and this stayed above water as she sank in only about 30 feet deep water.

The 64k question Bob is: Did any DD gun turrets roll out at 52 deg?

I suspect not, but one never knows.

BobK · #74 05-12-2011, 09:36 AM

No, ship righted itself. Didn't know other questions to ask. Had to be a heck of a feeling. He seemed pretty amazed ship didn't go turtle.
Now I'm trying to fit a makeshift clinometer to my tractor. Had to mow the hillside last night. Think a couple of times I was running (well, barely crawling) at 30+ degrees. Pucker factor was a lot higher than that, let me tell ya!
Having experienced more than 30 degrees, I just can't imagine the feeling of a ship doing 52 degrees. I've been in private aircraft at crazy angles. I've driven cars at speed on a banked race track. Neither felt as OMG as the tractor at 30. A ship at 50+? Yikes!

Hatterasguy · #75 05-12-2011, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chazola

reminds me of this (taken from Wiki):

"In December 1942, Queen Mary was carrying 16,082 American troops from New York to Great Britain, a standing record for the most passengers ever transported on one vessel.[17] While 700 miles (1,100 km) from Scotland during a gale, she was suddenly hit broadside by a rogue wave that may have reached a height of 28 metres (92 ft). An account of this crossing can be found in Walter Ford Carter's book, No Greater Sacrifice, No Greater Love. Carter's father, Dr. Norval Carter, part of the 110th Station Hospital on board at the time, wrote that at one point Queen Mary "damned near capsized... One moment the top deck was at its usual height and then, swoom! Down, over, and forward she would pitch." It was calculated later that the ship tilted 52 degrees, and would have capsized had she rolled another 3 degrees.[18] The incident inspired Paul Gallico to write his story, The Poseidon Adventure, which was later made into a film by the same name, using Queen Mary as a stand-in for SS Poseidon.
During the war, Queen Mary carried British Prime Minister Winston Churchill across the Atlantic for meetings with fellow Allied forces officials on several occasions, he would be listed on the passenger manifest as "Colonel Warden"[19] and insisted that the lifeboat assigned to him be fitted with a .303 machine gun so that he could "resist capture at all costs".

I don't believe Churchill ever traveled on the Queen Mary during the war.

He would travel on a fast cruiser, with a couple of escorts. First time he met FDR during the war they meet halfway in a remote bay in I believe Iceland. Considering the importance of heads of state they would only travel under the utmost secrecy, usually in their own little navel squadron.

He would also fly and was escorted by a squadron of Spitfires when he did.

Churchill was way to important to be on a troop ship.

Correction it was the Placentia Bay Conference on August 8-11 1941, Churchill sailed on the HMS Prince of Wales with escorts. I forget which ship FDR arrived on.

The Prince of Whales is an interesting ship, she shoot it out with the Bismark and I believed opened fire on the Bismark before the Hood. She was also sunk by Japanese land based aircraft a few years later.