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Hatterasguy 08-05-2011 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampYankee (Post 2764306)
Jeezus, many of us agree that W was incompetent and in over his head. That alone doesn't preclude Obama from being the same.

Two and a half years in to his term and we're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, but now we're dicking around in Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan and a couple players to be named later. We've dumped a Trillion into the economy under the auspice of bringing the slump to a halt with virtually no results and are considering another Tril or two. At some point Obama owns this mess. Maybe we're not to that point yet, but there's been a sizable down payment

I'd like to think that you guys are just defending your respective parties/candidate/President for the sake of argument rather than steadfast beliefs that your guy is right and just and the other guy is wrong and irresponsible. But maybe not. It's not automatically an "either/or" discussion, it could be an "and" one. It could be that Bush and Obama suck.

Anyone got some Tylenol? :)
Yep to me its the same as arguing witch turd in the toilet bowl is the best. Why bother?

Local2ED 08-05-2011 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampYankee (Post 2764306)
Jeezus, many of us agree that W was incompetent and in over his head. That alone doesn't preclude Obama from being the same.

Two and a half years in to his term and we're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, but now we're dicking around in Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan and a couple players to be named later. We've dumped a Trillion into the economy under the auspice of bringing the slump to a halt with virtually no results and are considering another Tril or two. At some point Obama owns this mess. Maybe we're not to that point yet, but there's been a sizable down payment

I'd like to think that you guys are just defending your respective parties/candidate/President for the sake of argument rather than steadfast beliefs that your guy is right and just and the other guy is wrong and irresponsible. But maybe not. It's not automatically an "either/or" discussion, it could be an "and" one. It could be that Bush and Obama suck.

Anyone got some Tylenol? :)
Eight years to create the mess but it SHOULD be cleaned up in two and a half?

boneheaddoctor 08-05-2011 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas H (Post 2764552)
You ignored the prescription drug act, which is costing us waayy more than Libya.
The action in Libya is a NATO action, and we are a small part of it.
If you're going to start supposing, does that make you a suppository?
There is Obama care that was rammed though behind closed doors without a proper vote....or even without republicans allowed to be there....

That tops all the individual things.....and the less than worthless Stimulus that only went to Obamas major supporters. And stimulated nothing but the mess we are in right now.

Pulling the NATO thing is not even applicable....which NATO ally was attacked by Libya? England is a NATO ally....we weren't in Northern Ireland when they were mucking around there.

sjh 08-05-2011 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor (Post 2764489)
I took offense to two of my posts being singled out and not the large number of others who said and did far worse.

I respect people that might not agree with me...but don't have to resort to name calling etc.....but I will sling mud back if someone slings it at me first.
Thank you for your reasoned response.

I can't disagree with what I've quoted above.

I don't think I called you a name.

I have strong aggressive tendencies myself but try to moderate them. But I'll tell you I've stopped my car in the middle of an intersection more than once and engaged people with behavior that could easily of lead to violence.

The worst part was once that primal part of me sees the red flag I'd like it to go violent.

Now, for so many reasons that is profoundly wrong. So I understand the urge to reply in kind or escalate.

I suspect you understand that I have very similar views of the blatant falsehoods and brainwashing that is constantly promulgated.

I got rid of my TV about 5 years ago. That sure helped.

sjh 08-05-2011 04:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymr (Post 2764502)
I would qualify that by saying all tax paying citizens have skin in the game. Just showing up doesn't count for much.
MTI seems obsessed with $$$. That is simply (albeit important) one expression of dysfunctionality. If the hypothetical impoverished person we are talking about, is healthy, clear-eyed, drug-free, eating well, supportive of the norms of society, sincerely wishes to assume the mantle of adulthood, etc than I'll be very open to 'walk by their side' as they grow stronger.

That is not what is occurring and everyone of us knows it.

The statement is, "If you can't function as an adult then you can't function as an adult."

It's intrinsically self-evident.

Would a functional society want someone who cannot take care of themselves to be able to make decisions on larger issues; the functioning of society at large?

res ipsa loquitur

sjh 08-05-2011 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 2764545)
I think you are assuming the truth of the point rather than demonstrating it. One could reasonably ask, " Has this really been progress?"...
EXACTLY!!!

I am accused of extreme draconian thought. I submit that what progressive action (not their goals but their methods) have done is the draconian behavior.

retmil46 08-05-2011 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 2764545)
How does any of this relate to Tocqueville's comment about the American system will last only until the populace begins to vote themselves monies from the public treasury?
On the face of it, imposing said requirement to pay federal taxes before being eligible to vote for anyone seeking federal office, might have the effect of winnowing out a large portion of those who's only reason for voting is to vote themselves said public funds - ie, more entitlements.

Even if it didn't, at the least it would only be the people who are footing the bill - those actually paying taxes - who had the most say in how public funds were spent. If they still screwed it up and voted in politicians that still ran the country bankrupt, they'd have only themselves to blame - no blaming this or that ethnic or racial group or societal class, ie, "it's all the fault of those welfare deadbeats".

boneheaddoctor 08-05-2011 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2764590)
Thank you for your reasoned response.

I can't disagree with what I've quoted above.

I don't think I called you a name.

I have strong aggressive tendencies myself but try to moderate them. But I'll tell you I've stopped my car in the middle of an intersection more than once and engaged people with behavior that could easily of lead to violence.

The worst part was once that primal part of me sees the red flag I'd like it to go violent.

Now, for so many reasons that is profoundly wrong. So I understand the urge to reply in kind or escalate.

I suspect you understand that I have very similar views of the blatant falsehoods and brainwashing that is constantly promulgated.

I got rid of my TV about 5 years ago. That sure helped.
I tend to watch the Discovery Channel and the Science channel most often...I like my tv. If I have the news on its to hear the weather or know where the many road constuction projects are at and when any might affect me....because most everything else isn't news....it bordlines on fiction. And the sad thing is how few people actually know they are being duped so often.

My job is my job....I may not like the SOB's I have to do work for....but they paid for a service...they get the same service just like anyone else does, No less. Like the Vegas comercial........what you hear on a call.....you keep to yourself. And I do.

Weekends I like to watch the Powerblock shows.....

sjh 08-05-2011 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor (Post 2764607)
I tend to watch the Discovery Channel and the Science channel most often...I like my tv. If I have the news on its to hear the weather or know where the many road constuction projects are at and when any might affect me....because most everything else isn't news....it bordlines on fiction. And the sad thing is how few people actually know they are being duped so often.

My job is my job....I may not like the SOB's I have to do work for....but they paid for a service...they get the same service just like anyone else does, No less. Like the Vegas comercial........what you hear on a call.....you keep to yourself. And I do.

Weekends I like to watch the Powerblock shows.....
Keep up the good work.

Take care.

Honus 08-05-2011 04:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Local2ED (Post 2764580)
Eight years to create the mess but it SHOULD be cleaned up in two and a half?
We've been working on this mess longer than that. I'd say we've been working on it since about 1981, when Ronald Reagan said, "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."

What a perverse attitude for the leader of the government to have. The anti-government attitude pervades Washington. It's no mystery that the government has become so dysfunctional.

75Sv1 08-05-2011 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honus (Post 2764620)
We've been working on this mess longer than that. I'd say we've been working on it since about 1981, when Ronald Reagan said, "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."

What a perverse attitude for the leader of the government to have. The anti-government attitude pervades Washington. It's no mystery that the government has become so dysfunctional.
Probably longer than that. Just kick the can as they say. Or as Death might say, let's kick the bucket. I don't think any of the politicians want to be the one to stop the gravy train. Actually Reagan did try and cut some welfare programs. Still, the spending on military build up did cost more than a few pennies. Rob Peter to pay Paul. The USSR did disolve though. I don't think Clinton fully capitolized on that opertunity. Some or the probelms were fostered during Clintons years. I won't say totally his fault though.
Tom

MTI 08-05-2011 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Fowler (Post 2764545)
I think you are assuming the truth of the point rather than demonstrating it. One could reasonably ask, " Has this really been progress?"
Is having a greater % of the populace engaged in "the franchise" an improvement? How would you demonstrate that thesis?
How does any of this relate to Tocqueville's comment about the American system will last only until the populace begins to vote themselves monies from the public treasury?

Not taking a side; just asking questions.
Yes, I believe that the movement away from "landed gentry" having all the power of the electorate was progress, just as giving the vote to women and ensuring that the citizens' right to vote is not impeded due. How else do we have a representative government, by the people and for the people, as contemplated by Lincoln's address?

The villifying of the poor in this discussion is interesting. The entertainment of the notion that there is some good in denying them voting rights is disappointing. Consider that the elderly and other infirm would not meet the income test, are they to be included in this secondary class of citizenship? The newly unemployed . . .

From restrictions to "white male landowners" to literacy tests and poll taxes . . . the history of voter rights has been a long struggle against prejudice and disenfranchisement, so I call that progess and to impose an income requirement is backwards.

Chas H 08-05-2011 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor (Post 2764586)
There is Obama care that was rammed though behind closed doors without a proper vote....or even without republicans allowed to be there....
.
By most accounts, what is known as Obama care by Republican bimbos, will save us money.The prescription drug act will cost us $590 billion; a much greater figure than first offered by Bush. He lied again. Did you vote for that liar?
Your portrayal of the legal process to bring legislation to law is larfingly, but predictably, wrong.

MTI 08-05-2011 06:23 PM
Bring on the death panels.

sjh 08-05-2011 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas H (Post 2764680)
... what is known as Obama care ... will save us money....
Please name one gov't-run program anywhere near the scale of ObamaCare since let's say 1950, that has functioned within the stated budget expectations that were claimed by the authors, CBO or its analogue, and/or the analysis performed by the media once pass.

Just one.

That does not mean I am opposed to all of them, just that the initial budget analysis is a complete canard.

So, if the gov't is 0 for 100 for all prior projections we're suppose to believe that this one will be right.

PS - No, I did not vote for Bush (jr) but for 2000 to 2004, knowing everything I know today, I'd vote for bush/cheney over kerry/edwards again and again. I'd prefer a third choice but that's what there is.


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