Therein lies the issue. The admin, whatever admin is in power can and will put up everything they can to say how quick and easy it will be. They also told us that the 2nd Gulf War would be over in 6 months or so. Bottom line is that if this is your pet project, you are going to sell it by telling us all the good and none of the bad. Legislators always push their agenda by telling you how easy it is and how good it will be. Ever seen one that is trying to sell you a point and tells you the negative possibilities? I haven't. During the gas price spike after Katrina, the salesman took your car and sold you an econobox. Sure, he told you how much cheaper it would be to run, etc, etc. Do you think he will say "OTOH, your truck is paid for and you are getting a new car payment. BTW, only at current gas prices and if you drive a lot of miles AND keep your car for a long time (unlikely to happen) will you actually start to make money."? Probably not. Otherwise they won't sell the econobox.

What we need to realize is that the famous line in House MD is "EVERYBODY LIES".

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To clear up a few points....

One......

George Kaiser may be a distant relative of the Kaiser of shipbuilding fame, but it is doubtful they ever met. George went to school in Tulsa and then on to Harvard. He joined a small oil and gas company owned by his uncle and then did very well for himself. He made some of his money from owning The Bank of Oklahoma which he bought when it went broke some years ago. If you understand Oklahoma then you know that banking here is just another branch of the oil business.

If you don't know oil then you should stay away from lending to that business. But if you do know oil......

George is famous for, among other things, telling lawmakers that ALL tax breaks for oil companies should be done away with. If you hit oil the last problem you have is not enough money. If you don't hit oil then all the tax breaks in the world are of little use to you.

George is also one of the top 50 Americans when it come to supporting charity.

George's uncle fled the Nazi's with just the clothes on his back and came to the US where he landed in Oklahoma and drifted into the oil business. He was lucky and hit more wells than dusters. When George took over he took a more scientific approach and did even better than his uncle. He is now considered to be worth about $4,000,000,000 which would make him one of the 100 richest Americans according to Forbes.

Two......

I am fully supportive of any investigation into this solar company loan, but I suspect that the Republicans will soon allow it to die a quite death. I am already hearing on right wing radio statements such as 'These are the facts I chose to believe'. Sounds like the facts of the Bush Administration concerning this entire event are coming to light and the right wing press is trying to figure out how to back away from this mess. One thing that has come out but has not been widely reported on is that there were 148 applications for the available funds in 2006. Eleven projects were selected and this was one of them.

Why? It is now suspected that the second largest investor in this company, a member of the Walton family, had something to do with this. But that is currently just talk and that is why this needs to be looked into.

Three......

The cost of Ethanol being greater than gasoline is not a factor in its' use as it is well known that ethanol contains less BTU content than gasoline. Ethanol is used for its' ability to pump oxygen into the air which reduces pollution. MTBE used to be used for this purpose, but it mixes well with water and is toxic to humans. When MTBE leaks into a water table the water table is destroyed; when Ethanol leaks into a water table it combines with the water and is diluted to the point of being almost undetectable.

Four.....

Something I don't understand but have been told by people that are better at accounting than myself is that the US is on the hook for $75 million, not $550 million. This has something to do with the way the contract is written.

The value of this solar companies' property is said to exceed $1 Billion, which is hard to believe, and if this is true the US would not lose a penny on this deal. All of the property, both real and personal, will be sold off and the proceeds will pay back the investors.

The cost to the taxpayers remains to be seen, but any statement that the US has 'lost' anything on this is currently unfounded.

Your comments on Kaiser were interesting.

I'm curious, what classifies as R-W radio? If it's Rush, Hannity, etc I don't expect facts from those folks, they're primarily 'rabble-rousers' (as are their compatriots on the left).

I know of no reason that Solyndra is any better or worse than numerous other gov' adventures. Obama's folks wanted this one to work out. It didn't. His opponents are trying to taint by association. Sounds like 'business-as-usual' to me.

Perhaps that number of selected should be ZERO. Govt acts like it knows what is best. Well, as a supervisor, you can't handle your duties. Why on earth should we promote you to manager?

I thought it was said to be costing more even in those terms than it saved? Besides, less BTU might mean that someone uses more of it to make the same work done. In the meantime, there is now a huge push to grow corn. I wonder if it will upset some sort of balance?

Getting better but that is 75 million pissed away still. Maybe govt should stop picking winners and thus making losers and mind their own businesses. Something they cannot already do.

What you value something at and what it actually might fetch on the open market, now that I know you have to sell and I don't have to buy is usually a different story.

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They are basically entertainers. Much like a cartoon. They have but one function. To make themselves rich and they succeeded.

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I agree with your comments about the right wing radio hosts. But they also seem to be the most common source of info for many of the hard right folks I know. Rush Limbaugh has stated flatly that he always tells the truth and that he is not a divisive figure. Others try to divide the country; he is the one true voice of the people. Anyway, that's Rush's opinion.

You can always tell when they have stopped telling the truth and, as we say around here, gone to lying when they stop giving facts and saying things like 'what if this is true' and 'I am only guessing here, but....'. And then they tend to start rattling off opinions as if they were facts.

In any case this entire affair just took a rather steep turn to the ????? since the leaders of this solar company just took the Fifth Amendment. They were supposed to be questioned by the Committee but they just sent a letter saying they were not going to show up because they were just going to plead the Fifth anyway so why make the trip?

This adds a layer to the story that was not there before. If the company just failed due to business factors, well, that happens everyday. But if it failed due to wrongdoing on the part of those that controlled the checkbook......

This really needs looking into in a deeper way than a political sideshow can deal with. The FBI is also now involved.

Stay tuned!

Can't the Senate Committee grant them immunity and compel their testimony?

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That reality isn't part of Pooka's fantasy.

And the used car salesman always tells you that he and only he will give you the best deal you are going to get. Every time I head that and didn't like the numbers, I walked. Every time, he came running back with an even better deal. Remember, nobody will tell you that they are lying even it is Rush or Obama. They always say they never lie and if you believe that, I have this bridge.....

Again, if they tell you the unvarnished truth, would you listen to them? Remember the "RECORD PROFITS" buzz phrase? Everyone knew that phrase. Some even knew the profit number. Nobody I asked ever knew how much was spent to make that "RECORD PROFIT" or the percentage but they knew the buzz phrase. Which is more sexy? The company making 40 billion each quarter or the company makes a 10% profit margin?

I wouldn't give a cop the time of day if he asked me. I can't blame them for not wanting to make it easy to incriminate them. If I were in their position, I'd take the 5th too whether I did anything wrong or not. You want me, come and get me. I'm not going to give you ammunition to get me with. Work for it.

If it had succeeded, nobody would have given a damn. That it failed, everybody will be wanting to find a mistake whether it exists or not. As Cardinal Richelieu was reputed to have said "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." I would personally be leery of that investigation that might just turn into a witch hunt. So no, I wouldn't give you a scrap of information. Go find it yourself if you can. Or as my lawyer said "If you don't say something, I can add it in if necessary. If you say something, I cannot take it back.".

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Who wants to do that? At this time, it is wide open. OTOH, if they cannot find something after some work, they might.

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If anyone is going to do that, I would guess it would be some House committee. I'll bet Rep. Gardner has already requested it. Their asserting the Fifth and then being immunized will be like porn for him.

I have no idea whether immunization is likely in a case like this.

What will they do, send out the capitol police? The Congress is a political, not executive body. They don't have executive authority or power. Like the Supremes. Or as President Jackson observed, "Mr Marshall has made his law. Now let him enforce it." Marshall was a justice, not an executive. Jackson emasculated his ruling. Due to which, the Cherokee nation suffered mightily. Yay President Jackson.

It has. The price of vegetable seed is up 50-200% from 2008 levels due to decreased acreage (because of the drastic increase in acreage for corn production for ethanol). If you eat vegetables, and whether you grow them yourself or buy them, you're paying an artificially high price thanks to ethanol. Animal feed is higher and fertilizer prices are spiking for the same reason. So basically, anything you eat is costing you more thanks to ethanol.

Ironically, when my parents were coming back from their vacation/business trip in NM, the two gas stations they stopped at in KS had ethanol-free gasoline at the pumps.

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You might consult with G. Gordon Liddy about the ability of the House to cited someone for contempt. He recieved a six month suspended sentence.

"Contempt of Congress is any improper attempt to obstruct the legislative process, usually by a refusal to provide information that Congress has requested. The contempt power is critical to Congress's ability to investigate the activities of the executive branch or any issue about which it is considering enacting legislation. Congress can use contempt citations against witnesses who refuse to testify or to produce required evidence. Those found guilty of contempt of Congress may go to prison.

There are three methods of prosecuting for contempt of Congress. First, Congress can try contempt cases itself. In 1848 and 1871 the Senate did just that, imprisoning newspaper reporters in the Capitol for not revealing the source of the Senate secrets they had published. Congress can also turn contempt cases over to the Department of Justice for criminal prosecution. However, juries have often acquitted individuals charged with contempt, especially if it appears that the congressional committee abused its power. For example, between 1950 and 1966 the House Un-American Activities Committee issued 133 contempt citations, but only nine people were convicted. Finally, the Senate or House can also file civil charges of contempt. Using this procedure, a federal judge determines whether a question asked by Congress was legitimate. If the judge orders a witness to answer and the witness refuses, then the witness would be in contempt of court and could be fined or imprisoned. For example, during the Watergate investigation the House cited G. Gordon Liddy for contempt for refusing to testify before a House committee. A federal judge gave Liddy a suspended six-month sentence.

The Supreme Court has upheld Congress's power to punish for contempt but has specified some limitations against its unreasonable use. In the case of McGrain v. Daugherty in 1927, the Court ruled that “a legislative body cannot legislate wisely or effectively in the absence of information…. Experience has taught that mere requests for such information often are unavailing, and also that information which is volunteered is not always accurate or complete; so some means of compulsion are essential to obtain that which is needed.”

http://www.answers.com/topic/contempt-of-congress

Liddy worked under the authority of the executive branch. The ruling circumscribed the president's claim of "executive privilege", and thus protect Liddy. All congressmen have denounced exec privilege, all presidents embrace it.


I do not believe that a private citizen has ever been compelled to testify in Congress. Imunity is offered precisely because they cannot compel.