Utilities Giving Away Power as Wind, Sun Flood European Grid - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

tjts1 · #1 10-01-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Sept. 30 (Bloomberg) -- The 15 mile-per-hour winds that buffeted northern Germany on July 24 caused the nation’s 21,600 windmills to generate so much power that utilities such as EON AG and RWE AG had to pay consumers to take it off the grid.

Rather than an anomaly, the event marked the 31st hour this year when power companies lost money on their electricity in the intraday market because of a torrent of supply from wind and solar parks. The phenomenon was unheard of five years ago.

With Europe’s wind and solar farms set to triple by 2020, utilities investing in new coal and gas-fired power stations no longer face stable returns. As more renewables come on line, a gas plant owned by RWE or EON that may cost $1 billion to build will be stopped more often from running at full capacity. It may only pay for itself on days like Jan. 31, when clouds and still weather pushed an hour of power on the same-day market above 162 ($220) euros a megawatt-hour after dusk, in peak demand time.

Utilities Giving Away Power as Wind, Sun Flood European Grid - BusinessWeek

So thats why they're running all those 'clean coal' BS ads on TV. They're scared ****less.

spdrun · #2 10-01-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

A few months ago the Obama Justice Department brought charges against Continental and six other oil companies in North Dakota for causing the death of 28 migratory birds, in violation of the Migratory Bird Act. Continental's crime was killing one bird "the size of a sparrow" in its oil pits. The charges carry criminal penalties of up to six months in jail. "It's not even a rare bird. There're jillions of them," he explains. He says that "people in North Dakota are really outraged by these legal actions," which he views as "completely discriminatory" because the feds have rarely if ever prosecuted the Obama administration's beloved wind industry, which kills hundreds of thousands of birds each year.

Good. It's the same idea as locking Al Capone up for tax fraud rather than murder.

Renewables whenever possible. Nuke, hydro (+ pumped storage), geothermal for base load. Run the oil companies out of business and down the toilet of history where they belong.

Jorn · #3 10-01-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

A few months ago the Obama Justice Department brought charges against Continental and six other oil companies in North Dakota for causing the death of 28 migratory birds, in violation of the Migratory Bird Act. Continental's crime was killing one bird "the size of a sparrow" in its oil pits. The charges carry criminal penalties of up to six months in jail. "It's not even a rare bird. There're jillions of them," he explains. He says that "people in North Dakota are really outraged by these legal actions," which he views as "completely discriminatory" because the feds have rarely if ever prosecuted the Obama administration's beloved wind industry, which kills hundreds of thousands of birds each year.

I don't see what this has to to with the article the OP posted.

spdrun · #4 10-01-2011, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

Well balanced. Even-handed. Clear, concise rational thinking.

If you can't break the power of an industry that has the people (and government) by the b@lls via conventional means, you have to resort to unconventional means.

Botnst · #5 10-01-2011, 09:19 PM

31/(24*270)

This demonstrates that the generator cannot be properly moderated. Hell, you could run a nuke plant above the grid demand, too.

What happens when the manufacturer of a product over-saturates the market?

layback40 · #6 10-01-2011, 10:05 PM

The hydro system here in Australia was originally designed so that water could be pumped back up the hill in times of over supply. I dont know if they have ever done it or if the hardware is still there to do it.

tjts1 · #7 10-01-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

The hydro system here in Australia was originally designed so that water could be pumped back up the hill in times of over supply. I dont know if they have ever done it or if the hardware is still there to do it.

Now there's an idea! Doesn't seem practical but who knows.
Smart Grid Stabilization System (SGSS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorn

I don't see what this has to to with the article the OP posted.

Its my fault really. I forgot to throw in a right wing bias into something unrelated. SJH is doing us a service by reminding us he is always RIGHT.

Botnst · #8 10-01-2011, 11:04 PM

I guess it could be used to pump water into a reservoir. Thermodynamically impure, but what are you gonna do?

spdrun · #9 10-02-2011, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjh

Sure. Or pressurize massive cylinders of inert gas, or separate water into hydrogen.

I'm all in favor of bright people and entrepreneurial zeal but if mom is sitting at home and needs the power to run her medical device to keep her alive I'd like pretty high confidence there's a stable grid.

Obviously new power sources will come. I just don't think ole A. Gore can wave his magic wand and everything will be wonderful.

We already HAVE *existing* technology that's cleaner than fossil fuel power. Nuclear fission. Hydro. Wind. Solar. Geothermal. It's a question of IMPLEMENTATION and ENGINEERING at this point, not research of the same level that produced the atom bombs.

Stable grid? Use nuclear for base load. Hell, keep a few fossil plants for peaking load in emergencies.

Quote:

So, do we think there is some entity out there who is wise enough for us to let them spend $50 Billion to develop green energy, particularly when there is quite possibly 100+ years of existing energy using conventional means?

Better than spending ... oh ... several trillion on murdering brown people in the Middle East for the sake of "oil suckurinety." And don't think this won't continue, even with domestic oil sources.

If green energy development and conversion can be done for $50 billion ($166 per citizen), that's chump change and money damned well spent. Of course, a good Christian like you probably thinks the heathen bastids in certain countries had it coming, so one can't really argue with you.

layback40 · #10 10-02-2011, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

I guess it could be used to pump water into a reservoir. Thermodynamically impure, but what are you gonna do?

The Snowy hydro scheme was designed in the early 1950's. At the time it was supposed to be the largest in the world. In recent years the greenies have been lobbying to have natural flows returned. As the price of electricity goes up they may have second thoughts.

KarTek · #11 10-02-2011, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

The hydro system here in Australia was originally designed so that water could be pumped back up the hill in times of over supply. I dont know if they have ever done it or if the hardware is still there to do it.

Pumped-storage hydroelectricity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They do it that way every night at Smith Mountain Lake in Virginia.

MS Fowler · #12 10-02-2011, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

The Snowy hydro scheme was designed in the early 1950's. At the time it was supposed to be the largest in the world. In recent years the greenies have been lobbying to have natural flows returned. As the price of electricity goes up they may have second thoughts.

Got the same thing right here in the good ole USA, a few miles from my house-- and built over 40 years ago.

from Wiki:
Muddy Run Pumped Storage Facility is a pumped-storage hydroelectric generation facility in Drumore Township, Pennsylvania, USA. When completed in 1968,[1] Muddy Run was the largest pumped-storage facility in the world. The facility is operated by the Susquehanna Electric Company, a subsidiary of Exelon Generation.

The facility's upper reservoir is the 1,000 acre (400 ha) Muddy Run Reservoir, with a full pool elevation of over 500 feet (150 m), and a usable storage capacity of 1,466,000,000 cubic feet (41.5 hm³) or 33,650 acre feet (41,510,000 m3). Muddy Run Reservoir was created by damming Muddy Run with a 4,800 foot (1,500 m) long, 250 foot (76 m) high, rock-filled dam[1]. The lower reservoir is the Conowingo Reservoir, created in the Susquehanna River by the Conowingo Dam, with a normal pool elevation of 109 feet (33 m). The power house uses excess grid capacity during off peak hours to pump water from the Conowingo Reservoir into the upper reservoir through four 25 foot (7.6 m) diamter, 343 vertical foot (105 m) shafts. During peak power demand periods, the water is allowed to flow back from the lake through the shafts to the eight turbines causing the pumps to act as generators. Muddy Run has a capacity of 1,071 megawatts.[2]

The Muddy Run electrical machinery was designed by the noted engineer Eugene C. Whitney of Westinghouse Electric Company, who designed the machinery for the Grand Coulee Dam #3 powerhouse. Whitney "was present when the machines were first to be started. The operator was reluctant to take the first step. Gene said, 'Call your boss.' The boss said, 'If Gene says to start the machines, start them.' So they did, and water rose from the lower Susquehanna River to the upper reservoir, 400 feet above".[3]

The upper reservoir extends into Martic Township. The area around the upper reservoir is operated as a park, complementing the nearby Susquehannock State Park. Susquehannock State Park has an overlook trail with a good view of the Muddy Run facility.