"Personhood" Amendments on Ballots - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Air&Road · #31 10-27-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Fair enough. So lets go on with your standard for a bit and see what you really think of it.

IF I shoot your kids in the head but keep their heart beating as I can with modern technology, much like Terry Schiavo, is that murder or just plain assault? It isn't murder since the heart is beating, right?

When you are wheeled into the hospital, what standard is used for determining death? If the heart stops, it's over as far as you are saying. So CPR isn't necessary since they are dead?

That analogy is so ridiculous it's not even worth discussion.

Air&Road · #32 10-27-2011, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Exodus 21:22-27. A miscarried fetus is not taken to be the equivalent of a born human.

I guess not since it is now dead.

aklim · #33 10-27-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

That analogy is so ridiculous it's not even worth discussion.

You mean it is so inconvenient to your argument.

BTW, it's not an analogy. It is basically using your same argument that a heartbeat is the definition of life.

sixto · #34 10-27-2011, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

IF I shoot your kids in the head but keep their heart beating as I can with modern technology, much like Terry Schiavo, is that murder or just plain assault? It isn't murder since the heart is beating, right?

That's a tricky one (and very poorly introduced). If the result of one's actions leaves a victim in a vegetative state, can that person be tried for murder? By TV crime show standards it would be at most attempted murder. Consequently, can the original person be [re]tried for murder if there is a medical decision to pull the plug? Would there be a follow-up trial on the new charge?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

When you are wheeled into the hospital, what standard is used for determining death? If the heart stops, it's over as far as you are saying. So CPR isn't necessary since they are dead?

There are rules and standards for applying CPR and for pronouncing someone dead. The puzzle is defining rules and standards for pronouncing alive someone who has never been.

Sixto
87 300D

aklim · #35 10-27-2011, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

That's a tricky one (and very poorly introduced). If the result of one's actions leaves a victim in a vegetative state, can that person be tried for murder? By TV crime show standards it would be at most attempted murder. Consequently, can the original person be [re]tried for murder if there is a medical decision to pull the plug? Would there be a follow-up trial on the new charge?

The puzzle is defining rules and standards for pronouncing alive someone who has never been.

But IF you use a heartbeat as the defining issue then as long as the heart beats, it cannot be murder since the person is alive. Now if YOU pull the plug that is a whole different story but either way, I didn't kill the man. Any other charge, maybe but I certainly didn't kill him since his heart was beating and therefore was alive.

The way I see it, the heartbeat argument seems to be trying to use something to grasp at straws. In the early stages, it is little more than a beat from a 2 chambered heart, IIRC. However, if you insist on using that as a standard of whether it is alive or not then as long as the heart beats, you cannot declare it dead which means the poorly worded extension is valid. You are not dead till someone stops that heart beating. If you use the same standards, you can decide if that blob of cells is as alive as a tumor or whether it meets the same standard of "alive" as you or I.

kerry · #36 10-27-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

Bible v Bible?

Seriously though, miscarried is a serious disclaimer.

Sixto
87 300D

But the punishment for causing a miscarriage is not the same as the punishment for killing a person.

The Clk Man · #37 10-27-2011, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Exodus 21:22-27. A miscarried fetus is not taken to be the equivalent of a born human.

Kerry, can you please point out where it states what you are saying?

"22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

kerry · #38 10-27-2011, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Clk Man

Kerry, can you please point out where it states what you are saying?

"22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
27And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

If the fetus dies, the punishment is a payment of money. If the woman dies, the punishment is death. The fetus is not considered the equivalent of the pregnant women when it comes to punishment.

The Clk Man · #39 10-27-2011, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

If the fetus dies, the punishment is a payment of money. If the woman dies, the punishment is death. The fetus is not considered the equivalent of the pregnant women when it comes to punishment.

Interesting. Is there anything else in The Bible to support your theory?

davidmash · #40 10-27-2011, 04:13 PM

I am curious, are there ways to 'safely' cause a miscarriage? I have no kids (and no plans for one) so I know nothing about pregnancy. If one were to purposely try and cause a miscarriage is that going to be a crime?

aklim · #41 10-27-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I am curious, are there ways to 'safely' cause a miscarriage? I have no kids (and no plans for one) so I know nothing about pregnancy. If one were to purposely try and cause a miscarriage is that going to be a crime?

I would think that it depends on your definition of "safe". If by "safe" you mean that the female comes out alive, sure. If you mean that there must be no risk, no. There is always a risk no matter how small.

davidmash · #42 10-27-2011, 04:28 PM

OK, minimal risk to the mother. Abortions involve risk by by most measures they are as safe as any other common medical procedure.

kerry · #43 10-27-2011, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Clk Man

Interesting. Is there anything else in The Bible to support your theory?

Not much that I know of. The Bible never mentions abortion so the best you can get are inferences and the one I mentioned is about the only one I think.

aklim · #44 10-27-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

OK, minimal risk to the mother. Abortions involve risk by by most measures they are as safe as any other common medical procedure.

While it does involve risk, I believe it is the female's body that has to take the risk so it does make her the one that should choose either way. Besides the fact that she is the host, that is. I mean, as host, shouldn't you have the right to say who goes and who stays and for how long? When I am having sex with a woman, she gets to say "STOP" when she feels like it since she is "hosting" me, so why is this different?

davidmash · #45 10-27-2011, 05:11 PM

I understand all that and agree with it.

I am just asking from a legal stand point. Should the MS law pass and pass SCOTUS review, is there a way for a woman to end up with the same result at minimal risk and essentially side step the religious whack jobs insistence in sticking their nose in privte lives and expanding the roll of government?