Plumbing Nightmare on Elm St. : Any ideas, anyone???? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Zacharias · #1 12-12-2011, 03:17 PM

This spring I started noticing that the toilet in my main bathroom (where the washer/dryer are located) would "gargle/burp" when the washer was draining. I have been in the house 10 years, never ever a drain issue.

A few months later one weekend I tried the flush the toilet while the washer was draining and everything backed up: toilet overflowed, bathtub bubbled up. When I tried to plunge the toilet it came up into the bathtub. The washing machine didn't drain properly either.

I notified my house insurance company and the rep arrived next day with a plumber in tow, with a video camera-snake. They put it down via the toilet inlet and found only a very mild buildup at one point in the sewer line. However, they only went about 50 ft (which in theory ought to be enough to cover my outlet to the street, given the size of my yard).

They pronounced it inconclusive, though it's an older house and they did note the pipe has a lot of buildup from age and could use a routing. They left, but the insurer didn't close the file.

One month later it happened again, but worse this time. Insurer says this one is on me. So I pay for the plumber to bring back the camera, but this is a better one with an odometer. This time we go all the way to the city connection and we find it's ONE HUNDRED FEET. As my front yard is only about 25-30 feet to the street, this means my sewer pipe is running diagonal and likely across a neighbour's yard. (This isn't as weird as it sounds... I'm in what was a cottage area outside a village that became a suburb, so things aren't as regular as they ought to be, sometimes.)

Still they find no blockage. They clean the pipe and leave... but they tell me to speak to the City about the pipe run issue.

City inspector comes and suggests it's a venting issue. He says they had the same set of symptoms in another house in a similar neighbourhood and after digging up the line, they found it was just a clogged roof vent. He says to clean out the vent before we take any other steps.

So I get a guy in twice (I don't do ladders or heights) to go up on the roof with a hose and we flush out the venting system. First time seems ok but drains act up a little, two weeks later. Second time he runs a bigger hose down about 25 feet (this is a bungalow) and flush for half an hour so we figure we've gone quite far. Drains work like clockwork for months afterwards....

UNTIL THIS WEEKEND the bubbling and backup starts again. But worse. When the washer drains it backs up in half the drains in the house (incl. sinks) and the pipes bang/thump like a small child is jumping up and down on the floor. It's like everything locks up... then about 45 minutes later there is humungous burp, I assume from the toilet), and all the drains empty at once. Everything seems fine after, but now this morning the toilet is gurgling just from using the shower.....

Anyone got any ideas on this?

My insurance company will pay to dig up the pipe, then redo my yard after (I have to pay for the actual pipe replacement but a length of PVC pipe installed isn't much). But I don't want to do all of that, then have the problem back in a month....

What I have ZERO confidence in, is whether the plumber is thinking this through or just going through the usual range of attack modes.

Graplr · #2 12-12-2011, 03:26 PM

I don't have much advice but you could check the vent again to see if it clogged up in the past two weeks. Perhaps some animal or something is clogging the vent??

kerry · #3 12-12-2011, 03:51 PM

It sounds to me like a clogged vent. Do you have ready access to a section of the vent pipe inside the house somewhere? I'd be tempted to cut the pipe inside the house somewhere above the level of all the fixtures and make sure it's open between there and the fixtures. You can usually hear a toilet flush if you put your ear next to an open vent line. I'd then put a Studor vent where I cut it, probably using a Y fitting to make sure it stayed open.

The other possibility is that there is a blockage in the city sewer line. Ask your neighbors if they are having any drain troubles.

Zacharias · #4 12-12-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

It sounds to me like a clogged vent. Do you have ready access to a section of the vent pipe inside the house somewhere?

Unfortunately not or we would have pulled it apart already.

It's really, really hard to imagine how there could still be a blockage after all the water that we pushed down when we put the hose down. But I agree that it's acting like there's a venting issue.

So you basically install a studor vent on every drain?

t walgamuth · #5 12-12-2011, 04:06 PM

I would suspect belly in the line to the street. Did the camera go underwater on its way to the street?

If there is belly in the line, solids will build up until the line is partially blocked or mostly blocked....then when you flush a big load it will back up. A sink drain slowly though might work just fine. Dumping the washing machine into it will also do a number. and the toilet at the same time as the washing machine is a sure ticket to filling up the tub.

I don't see a vent casing things to back up. Causing it to glub glub is another matter....that it will do.

I had this issue in the sewer line in the rental house I had in Muncie a few years back. The only solution is to dig it up and install new with the proper slope all the way to the sewer.

The Clk Man · #6 12-12-2011, 04:24 PM

Does this happen after a hard rain? the drain at my Print shop does the same thing after a hard rain. I also suspect a venting problem.

Zacharias · #7 12-12-2011, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I would suspect belly in the line to the street. Did the camera go underwater on its way to the street?

No never underwater. There were two joints where the pipe actually rose slightly, however, which stuck me as very weird. The plumber said he sees that from time to time.

What struck us was the ridiculously long run to the street. The city inspector wouldn't believe it, even being told there was an odo on the camera. I then pointed out that the plumber said the amount of line he had strung out was supporting that, and the inspector had no answer.

It's an old neighbourhood with huge trees. The assumption here is that they didn't want to disturb the trees, and/or risk later root incursion (usual suspect in this area when this happens), so they ran the outlet diagonal to the street.

In any case the city guy said that if flushed my vents and it persisted, he would sign off on digging their side of the property line. I wonder when push comes to shove if he will, however, seeing as the camera never found an issue.... I was told normally the city won't dig without a camera report of a blockage.

Zacharias · #8 12-12-2011, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Clk Man

Does this happen after a hard rain? the drain at my Print shop does the same thing after a hard rain. I also suspect a venting problem.

Aha what an interesting question.... I forgot to add in my first post that the first two times it did. When we pulled the hose out from flushing the vent the first time, it showed evidence of muddy debris and spruce needles.

Our suspicion was that when it rained the accumulated debris turned muddly and plugged the vent, but in dry weater enough air could get by to keep things running.

However, we've now flushed a LOT of water down there. I can't imagine how debris could still be an issue.

When we flushed the second time, the hose came up with no evidence of mud or debris on it.

kerry · #9 12-12-2011, 04:44 PM

You could suck all the water out of one of your toilets allowing that toilet to serve as a vent for a while and see what happens. I wouldn't leave it that way a long time because it would allow sewer gases into the house but it would work to test the bad vent hypothesis. One studor vent should work.

Chas H · #10 12-12-2011, 04:48 PM

Maybe the sewer main is completely full and causing your effluent to back up. Next time it happens, or you make it happen, go lift the upstream manhole cover and check the level of the sewer flow. Or get the city to do it.

Yak · #11 12-12-2011, 06:52 PM

Any idea what the slope to the city line is? Too shallow and it'll sit. Too steep and a surge of water can form a vacuum-like effect because it can't pull air in fast enough.

Or your vent line may be too small for the washer and the toilet at the same time. You say it's an older house, so the washer was probably added.

Good discussion on venting here: How to Repair Common Plumbing Drain and Vent Problems

Any other changes recently: new washer? dishwasher?

You may also want to check the traps on the sinks and the drain in the shower. I use a gel shaving cream and that can form a layer of slime in the trap. You'd be amazed and disgusted by the hair in a shower drain. You may have been lucky and using the other drains as unintentional vents, but now they're partially clogged so you're having trouble.

The Clk Man · #12 12-12-2011, 07:07 PM

I still think it's a venting problem.

Zacharias · #13 12-12-2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yak

Any idea what the slope to the city line is? Too shallow and it'll sit. Too steep and a surge of water can form a vacuum-like effect because it can't pull air in fast enough.

Or your vent line may be too small for the washer and the toilet at the same time. You say it's an older house, so the washer was probably added.

Good discussion on venting here: How to Repair Common Plumbing Drain and Vent Problems

Any other changes recently: new washer? dishwasher?

You may also want to check the traps on the sinks and the drain in the shower. I use a gel shaving cream and that can form a layer of slime in the trap. You'd be amazed and disgusted by the hair in a shower drain. You may have been lucky and using the other drains as unintentional vents, but now they're partially clogged so you're having trouble.

Thanks for all that.

Recent additions: new bathroom vanity and low-flow toilet. The plumber advised me the LF toilets can cause backup problems in older houses with cast iron pipe... told me to always use multiple flushes on solids.

I wondered about the other drains. I have a similar issue as I use denture cream and I recently had a nasty clog in the bathroom sink. That stuff turns to rock if it's allowed to dry out and I had a hell of a time to open up the trap.

jaoneill · #14 12-12-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I would suspect belly in the line to the street. Did the camera go underwater on its way to the street?

If there is belly in the line, solids will build up until the line is partially blocked or mostly blocked....then when you flush a big load it will back up. A sink drain slowly though might work just fine. Dumping the washing machine into it will also do a number. and the toilet at the same time as the washing machine is a sure ticket to filling up the tub.

I think Tom is on the mark; the raised joints that you have seen indicate high points that would necessarily have corresponding low points upstream.

You have also installed a low flow toilet. With the older fixture providing a 3-4 gallon flow to wash the solids through, it wasn't an issue. Now with only a gallon + the solids get left behind, eventually building up to a blockage. Especially in a lateral of that length, the pitch is critical. There are very often unintended consequences to the best of intentions.

Jim

Zacharias · #15 12-12-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaoneill

There are very often unintended consequences to the best of intentions.

No best intentions involved. As far as I know, low-flow is all they sell here now