Fast and Furious didn't walk any guns - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

elchivito · #1 06-27-2012, 06:21 PM

Very interesting Fortune magazine investigation. Turns out, according to the author, that the only guns actually purchased and provided to a known trafficker were bought by Issa's main witness, John Dodson. The rest of it was a matter of recording serial numbers of guns sold to straw buyers and not being able to legally do anything about it. There was never a focus on "tracking" those guns. It also wasn't a "program", the whole thing took place quite quickly and was a one time deal.

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Issa is on a political witch hunt. Nothing more.

MS Fowler · #2 06-27-2012, 06:41 PM

One magazine investigation. What agenda does Fortune have?
I'll wait for a full investigation.

MTI · #3 06-27-2012, 07:06 PM

Because the public reports of full investigations are always better? Who writes those reports and what agenda might they have? Hmmm.

Botnst · #4 06-27-2012, 07:11 PM

Paranoia strikes deep.
Into your hearts it will creep.
It starts when you're always afraid,
Step out of line, they come
And take you away.

elchivito · #5 06-27-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

One magazine investigation. What agenda does Fortune have?
I'll wait for a full investigation.

Didn't read it, did you?

MTI · #6 06-27-2012, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Paranoia strikes deep.
Into your hearts it will creep.
It starts when you're always afraid,
Step out of line, they come
And take you away.

I thought it's

Step outta line, the man come, and take you away

MTI · #7 06-27-2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Didn't read it, did you?

Might not fit his agenda.

Botnst · #8 06-27-2012, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

I thought it's

Step outta line, the man come, and take you away

I should never quote from memory.

But I do anyway.

I forget.

Dudesky · #9 06-27-2012, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Very interesting Fortune magazine investigation. Turns out, according to the author, that the only guns actually purchased and provided to a known trafficker were bought by Issa's main witness, John Dodson. The rest of it was a matter of recording serial numbers of guns sold to straw buyers and not being able to legally do anything about it. There was never a focus on "tracking" those guns. It also wasn't a "program", the whole thing took place quite quickly and was a one time deal.

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

Issa is on a political witch hunt. Nothing more.

Doubt it. The mole has provided emails. Holder and Obama are liars. Why else cover your executive ass?
Dick Nixon ll

Killer · #10 06-27-2012, 10:39 PM

Yeah Congress shouldn't investigate Obama/Holder and DOJ supervision and approval as required by the Federal Statute authorizing Organized Crime Drug Enforment Task Force coordinated muti-agency operations
where as part of the OCDETF designated Fast and Furious, Eban's obfuscation article reports:

"Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau."

Constitutionally delegated Congressional oversight obligation, is "a witch hunt, no more"?

Dudesky · #11 06-27-2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killer

Yeah Congress shouldn't investigate Obama/Holder and DOJ supervision and approval as required by the Federal Statute authorizing Organized Crime Drug Enforment Task Force coordinated muti-agency operations
where as part of the OCDETF designated Fast and Furious, Eban's obfuscation article reports:

"Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau."

Constitutionally delegated Congressional oversight obligation, is "a witch hunt, no more"?

The Killer awoke before dawn,
He put his boots on
And he walked on down the hall..

cmac2012 · #12 06-28-2012, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

One magazine investigation. What agenda does Fortune have?
I'll wait for a full investigation.

You mean the way Issa and crew are waiting for the full story before they vote to place Holder in contempt? Did you read the article? It's quite compelling:

Quote:

In the annals of impossible assignments, Dave Voth's ranked high. In 2009 the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promoted Voth to lead Phoenix Group VII, one of seven new ATF groups along the Southwest border tasked with stopping guns from being trafficked into Mexico's vicious drug war.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault. In 2009 the ATF named him outstanding law-enforcement employee of the year for dismantling two violent street gangs in Minneapolis. He was the "hardest working federal agent I've come across," says John Biederman, a sergeant with the Minneapolis Police Department. But as Voth left to become the group supervisor of Phoenix Group VII, a friend warned him: "You're destined to fail."

Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

Further down, here's the kicker. The right wing wall of noise has it that gun dealers are required to refuse to sell arms to people they suspect of being straw buyers and would have done so if not instructed to sell to suspicious characters by the ATF.

Oh, you bet Phoneix area gun dealers are refusing those who appear to be straw buyers:

Quote:

They were seven agents pursuing more than a dozen cases, of which Fast and Furious was just one, their efforts complicated by a lack of adequate tools. Without a real-time database of gun sales, they had to perform a laborious archaeology. Day after day, they visited local gun dealers and pored over forms called 4473s, which dealers must keep on file. These contain a buyer's personal information, a record of purchased guns and their serial numbers, and a certification that the buyer is purchasing the guns for himself. (Lying on the forms is a felony, but with weak penalties attached.) The ATF agents manually entered these serial numbers into a database of suspect guns to help them build a picture of past purchases.

By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa's congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.

This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "Purchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime." (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, "I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing investigation/prosecution. I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter." Cunningham's attorney also declined to comment.)

cmac2012 · #13 06-28-2012, 04:18 AM

This thing is looking more and more like a sort of Mississippi Madness, or South Sea Bubble, where people fervently believed implausible scenarios with a sort of mob-like fervor. Mark my words, Issa is heading into Joe McCarthy territory. He's chewing on what he thinks is a thick steak, and will not let go, as this has been his breakthrough, it's brought him prestige, at least from the devoted NRA contingent on the far right.

Here's the Fortune article's story about the guns found at the scene of Brian Terry's murder:

Quote:

Ten days after the meeting with Hurley, a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila's purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn't receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry's murder scene.

Air&Road · #14 06-28-2012, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

You mean the way Issa and crew are waiting for the full story before they vote to place Holder in contempt? Did you read the article? It's quite compelling:

Further down, here's the kicker. The right wing wall of noise has it that gun dealers are required to refuse to sell arms to people they suspect of being straw buyers and would have done so if not instructed to sell to suspicious characters by the ATF.

Oh, you bet Phoneix area gun dealers are refusing those who appear to be straw buyers:

Can you say CATCH 22? I find the part in bold to be absolutely hilarious!

The contempt vote is due to Eric withHolder NOT turning over the documents. The committee can NOT know the full story until withHolder turns over the documents.

Geesshh...... Talk about liberal spin!!!!!!!!!!

Dudesky · #15 06-28-2012, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

This thing is looking more and more like a sort of Mississippi Madness, or South Sea Bubble, where people fervently believed implausible scenarios with a sort of mob-like fervor. Mark my words, Issa is heading into Joe McCarthy territory. He's chewing on what he thinks is a thick steak, and will not let go, as this has been his breakthrough, it's brought him prestige, at least from the devoted NRA contingent on the far right.

Here's the Fortune article's story about the guns found at the scene of Brian Terry's murder:

What does all this have to with Holder and Obama's denial of any knowledge of the op and lying to congress under oath?