Monsanto. Derivatives and Speculation on Land and Food - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

dkveuro · #1 08-28-2012, 01:55 AM

Previously I was very skeptical of what I saw as a conspiracy theory. Well it seems it's no longer a theory.

Here in Oklahoma we watch as tornado alley has moved east. I watched this video with some hesitation but it is well presented without hysterical and dramatic theater.

Googling many of the papers presented seems to support the final prognosis on weather effects and advantages for a small group of people.

The questions I have are ....

!/. The people enabling this have to breather the same air. Are they able to avoid the global effects, or don't they care ?

2/.It seems to me that it's like killing someone you don't like and killing yourself at the same time....whats the advantage?

3/. If Monsanto succeeds in it's apparent endeavor, how in the world will they produce enough 'stress resistant' seeds to supply the worlds food engine.....and do so for the years to come ?

India and Germany are/have banned GMO or legislated GMO food labeling.
Europeans are growing in their avoidance of GMO products.

Might I suggest you watch the video with an open mind and research the evidence.

If the objective is to cool the planet to reduce or eliminate AGW, a tipping point would be reached that may not be stoppable, just as they claim the predicted AGW will get to a tipping point.

"Why in the World are They Spraying?" Full Length Documentary HD - YouTube

.

SwampYankee · #2 08-28-2012, 07:52 AM

Add to this whole mess the fact that not only is Roundup now off-patent, generic glyphosate is widely available, but several Roundup Ready trait patents are set to come off patent in the near future. I can't help but wonder if more companies would even enter the Glyphosate Resistant crop market since the RR crops haven't exactly lived up to the promises and weed resistance is already becoming an issue, not only in living weeds but passed on to their offspring (with no direct glyphosate contact) as well.

Offered only in the interest of clarification, from the Home Garden Seed Association:

Quote:

GE (Genetically Engineered): The terms GE and GMO frequently used interchangeably in the media, but they do not mean the same thing; it is modern Genetic Engineering that is the subject of much discussion. Genetic Engineering describes the high-tech methods used in recent decades to incorporate genes directly into an organism. The only way scientists can transfer genes between organisms that are not sexually compatible is to use recombinant DNA techniques. The plants that result do not occur in nature; they are “ genetically engineered” by human intervention and manipulation. Examples of GE crops currently grown by agribusiness include corn modified with a naturally occurring soil bacterium for protection from corn borer damage (Bt-corn), and herbicide-resistant (“Roundup Ready®”) soybeans, corn, cotton, canola, and alfalfa. All of these are larger acreage, commercial crops.

And

Quote:

GMO (Genetically Modified Organism): The USDA defines a GMO as an organism produced through any type of genetic modification, whether by high-tech modern genetic engineering, OR long time traditional plant breeding methods. While you often hear the GE and GMO used interchangeably, they have different meanings. For hundreds of years, genes have been manipulated empirically by plant breeders who monitor their effects on specific characteristics or traits of the organism to improve productivity, quality, or performance. When plant breeders, working with conventional or organically produced varieties, select for traits like uniformity or disease resistance in an open-pollinated variety or create a hybrid cross between two cultivars, they are making the same kind of selections which can also occur in nature; in other words, they are genetically modifying organisms and this is where the term GMO actually applies. Examples of 20th century breeding work include familiar vegetables and fruits such as seedless watermelons, pluots and
modern broccoli.

SwampYankee · #3 08-28-2012, 08:07 AM

This caught many of our contract growers in OR by surprise:

Oregon Officials Fast-Track Decision to Allow GE Canola in Willamette Valley

Quote:

Washington, DC--(ENEWSPF)--August 13, 2012. Until last Friday, Willamette Valley’s organic farmers and seed producers were protected from the planting and cross-pollination of their crops by GE canola. However, new rules, fast-tracked without public comment by the Oregon Department of Agriculture (ODA) (announced August 3rd and effective only a week later), now allow for the planting of GE canola in areas previously deemed off-limits.

Benz Dr. · #4 08-28-2012, 12:02 PM

Most of my farmer friends grow RR soya beans - I do too. Before we had this seed we had all sorts of weed problems. Quack grass, milkweed, cockle burr, group 2 resistant pig weed, velevet leaf, thistles, dog bane, lambs quarters, rag weed, and a host of other lesss common weeds. We used a number of different sprays with levels of control from excellent to very poor. If we had escapes then we had to go back in and spray again.
Roundup took care of all the tough weeds that grow every year - they're gone now. It will also control the regular weeds that grow from seed. Since it's a contact herbide, the weeds have to be growing or it won't work. I'm buying roundup for $9.00 per liter when it was cose to $50.00 when it was first introduced. After it became less weather sensitive in a couple of hours it was the choice for everyone.

I'm fully aware that the patent runs out this year. The catch is that I still won't be able to save any seed. The old varietys that we could have saved have been fazed out and replaced with new ones with only one gene that's different thereby allowing that seed to have a new patent. We will never be able to save seed with this going on.
The cost for GMO seed per acre is the same as non GMO seed with regular spray - there's no cost savings by using your own regular seed and it may end up costing more if you have weed problems.
Regular seed breeding continues in both corn and soya beans and it will continue into the future - this is where new and better varietys are produced. I use Pioneer seed. They have a good program where I can buy my seed this fall and pay for after harvest next fall.

I can't see why they would modify alfalfa. A good stand will easily smother out any weeds. There are a number of insect pests that can attack this plant and maybe that's where they went with this.
Canola already is a modified plant. The Canadian government developed it from rape seed which had certain problems that made it unsuitable for animal feed. Canola was made available to everyone - it was bred as a public variety. When the RR gene was introduced it pretty much screwed every non GMO grower wherever it was grown. Unlike soyabeans, canola seed is very small and it can be moved by wind or water and start growing the following season in a different area or field. So, even if you don't grow RR canola, you soon will. Monsanto has guys who come around and check your fields. You never see them either so you never really know when, or if they do.
If RR canola was banned in your area and now they're allowing it, there must have been law suits pending. I'd look at going after any grower that contaminates my fields. You won't stop Monsatan but you might stop area growers. However, Monsatan would probably rent the land and plant it themselves - try fighting them; good luck on that......

Do I like the way Monsatan operates? NO, but I'm not in a position to fight them and really, what would it bring me? They, and others, have been very sucessfull in preventing lableing of GMO products. I don't trust the organic stuff either as it's mostly about production method and it may not be one bit better. It sure costs more though.
We use a combination of crop rotation, cover crops such as oil radish and red clover, and minimum or no till methods. Compared to the way we used to plough every fall, disc and cultivate every spring, and till everything, this is far less costly. The spray does the tillage for me. We enter the field about four times a year now as compared to 7 or 8 times before we went to no till.
Part of the no till program is that you have to use a spray ( roundup) for burn down. Without it, you're back to conventional tillage and at a $1.25 per liter for diesel fuel, it just doesn't pay that way anymore.

panZZer · #5 08-28-2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz Dr.

Most of my farmer friends grow RR soya beans - I do too. Before we had this seed we had all sorts of weed problems. Quack grass, milkweed, cockle burr, group 2 resistant pig weed, velevet leaf, thistles, dog bane, lambs quarters, rag weed, and a host of other lesss common weeds. We used a number of different sprays with levels of control from excellent to very poor. If we had escapes then we had to go back in and spray again.
Roundup took care of all the tough weeds that grow every year - they're gone now. It will also control the regular weeds that grow from seed. Since it's a contact herbide, the weeds have to be growing or it won't work. I'm buying roundup for $9.00 per liter when it was cose to $50.00 when it was first introduced. After it became less weather sensitive in a couple of hours it was the choice for everyone.

I'm fully aware that the patent runs out this year. The catch is that I still won't be able to save any seed. The old varietys that we could have saved have been fazed out and replaced with new ones with only one gene that's different thereby allowing that seed to have a new patent. We will never be able to save seed with this going on.
The cost for GMO seed per acre is the same as non GMO seed with regular spray - there's no cost savings by using your own regular seed and it may end up costing more if you have weed problems.
Regular seed breeding continues in both corn and soya beans and it will continue into the future - this is where new and better varietys are produced. I use Pioneer seed. They have a good program where I can buy my seed this fall and pay for after harvest next fall.

I can't see why they would modify alfalfa. A good stand will easily smother out any weeds. There are a number of insect pests that can attack this plant and maybe that's where they went with this.
Canola already is a modified plant. The Canadian government developed it from rape seed which had certain problems that made it unsuitable for animal feed. Canola was made available to everyone - it was bred as a public variety. When the RR gene was introduced it pretty much screwed every non GMO grower wherever it was grown. Unlike soyabeans, canola seed is very small and it can be moved by wind or water and start growing the following season in a different area or field. So, even if you don't grow RR canola, you soon will. Monsanto has guys who come around and check your fields. You never see them either so you never really know when, or if they do.
If RR canola was banned in your area and now they're allowing it, there must have been law suits pending. I'd look at going after any grower that contaminates my fields. You won't stop Monsatan but you might stop area growers. However, Monsatan would probably rent the land and plant it themselves - try fighting them; good luck on that......

Do I like the way Monsatan operates? NO, but I'm not in a position to fight them and really, what would it bring me? They, and others, have been very sucessfull in preventing lableing of GMO products. I don't trust the organic stuff either as it's mostly about production method and it may not be one bit better. It sure costs more though.
We use a combination of crop rotation, cover crops such as oil radish and red clover, and minimum or no till methods. Compared to the way we used to plough every fall, disc and cultivate every spring, and till everything, this is far less costly. The spray does the tillage for me. We enter the field about four times a year now as compared to 7 or 8 times before we went to no till.
Part of the no till program is that you have to use a spray ( roundup) for burn down. Without it, you're back to conventional tillage and at a $1.25 per liter for diesel fuel, it just doesn't pay that way anymore.

well guess what some of those "weeds" are very necessary -- milkweed is what monarch butterflies have to have to survive. I dont know about what other critically necessary critters depend on the other "weeds" -- like say honeybees. Any farmer who dosent have his head shover up in their extremes knows that those butterflies are crucial........
Bottom line is Mother Nature dosent make mistakes, reguardless of the BS poison Monsanto is pushing.

Benz Dr. · #6 08-28-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

well guess what some of those "weeds" are very necessary -- milkweed is what monarch butterflies have to have to survive. I dont know about what other critically necessary critters depend on the other "weeds" -- like say honeybees. Any farmer who dosent have his head shover up in their extremes knows that those butterflies are crucial........
Bottom line is Mother Nature dosent make mistakes, reguardless of the BS poison Monsanto is pushing.

Good. You can come and hoe all of the weeds in my fields. It's only 200 acres so it shouldn't take you too long.

We have plenty of weeds growing along the roads. I know about milkweed and Monarch butterflies, they only speces that needs common milkweed. Their caperpillars feed on the leaves while the adults will go to any bright flower. I wouldn't say that butterflies are mainly responsible for pollenation, that's more the territory of honey bees.

SwampYankee · #7 08-28-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benz Dr.

Most of my farmer friends grow RR soya beans - I do too. Before we had this seed we had all sorts of weed problems. Quack grass, milkweed, cockle burr, group 2 resistant pig weed, velevet leaf, thistles, dog bane, lambs quarters, rag weed, and a host of other lesss common weeds. We used a number of different sprays with levels of control from excellent to very poor. If we had escapes then we had to go back in and spray again.
Roundup took care of all the tough weeds that grow every year - they're gone now. It will also control the regular weeds that grow from seed. Since it's a contact herbide, the weeds have to be growing or it won't work. I'm buying roundup for $9.00 per liter when it was cose to $50.00 when it was first introduced. After it became less weather sensitive in a couple of hours it was the choice for everyone.
...
The cost for GMO seed per acre is the same as non GMO seed with regular spray - there's no cost savings by using your own regular seed and it may end up costing more if you have weed problems.

You're talking Genetically Engineered, not Genetically Modified.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm no fan of Monsanto. Having said that, only about 1/2 (or less) of what we read about Monsanto on the internet is true. The majority of what we read about them when it comes to their genetically engineered traits and what they do to protect their patents is. The majority of what we read about them taking over the garden seed industry by buying seed companies is mostly false. The majority of what we read about the varieties that they "own" and any purchase of those varieties supports them is mostly false (most of those varieties have been off-patent for decades, can be grown by anyone for production as long as it is true to type and whatever royalty, no matter how miniscule or even specious the connecting to Monsanto is, they receive nothing).

The frightening prospect, if we put aside all other aspects of RR crops, is the very real (and now realized) possibility of weeds building up resistance to the glyphosate. Then what? Glyphosate resistant pigweed in cotton down south has the potential to be devastating. The other thing that is disturbing is the offspring of these weeds are showing resistance to it without directly coming in contact with the chemical. The parent plants are passing the resistance on to the next generation.

cullennewsom · #8 08-28-2012, 05:29 PM

Roundup Ready™⁠ Coca is where the real money is at.

jplinville · #9 08-28-2012, 05:43 PM

I like flowers...

elchivito · #10 08-28-2012, 07:10 PM

Heritage food crop varieties are at serious risk with GMO crops being grown everywhere. Cross pollination ensures that the heritage sweet corn my family has grown for generations is compromised in one season by the RR Corn the guy across the road decided to buy and grow. Monsanto can sue me next year for growing patented seed and they will win. They already have. Diversity which fosters ecological strength is threatened. If only half of what is said about Monsanto is true, that's plenty for me.
I don't see a solution frankly and it's disheartening. The notion that a life form can be patented internationally is frankly even scarier than the idea that corporations are people.
I have a glimmer of hope that the new and growing interest in heritage varieties, local sourcing and home grown food will put some sort of damper on this road to biological perdition but I am not optimistic.

SwampYankee · #11 08-28-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Heritage food crop varieties are at serious risk with GMO crops being grown everywhere. Cross pollination ensures that the heritage sweet corn my family has grown for generations is compromised in one season by the RR Corn the guy across the road decided to buy and grow. Monsanto can sue me next year for growing patented seed and they will win. They already have. Diversity which fosters ecological strength is threatened. If only half of what is said about Monsanto is true, that's plenty for me.
I don't see a solution frankly and it's disheartening. The notion that a life form can be patented internationally is frankly even scarier than the idea that corporations are people.
I have a glimmer of hope that the new and growing interest in heritage varieties, local sourcing and home grown food will put some sort of damper on this road to biological perdition but I am not optimistic.

Don't get me wrong, the 1/2 correct we hear about Monsanto is plenty bad enough. If they went broke and boarded up their windows tomorrow, it wouldn't be soon enough. Unfortunately those 1/2 incorrect get regurgitated as fact on numerous forums and throughout the blogosphere. We've been lucky enough to not be incorrectly lumped in with those companies supporting Monsanto, many in our industry haven't been so lucky.

I do think there is a lot of hope on the localvore/home grown front. We've seen a significant growth in that part of our business (that is the majority for us, we do carry some traditional hybrid varieties). Heirloom/heritage and standard open pollinated varieties are in high demand. I think we're safe in New England if only because there just isn't the acreage available and there has a been a fairly strong growth in numbers of small farms. You guys in the big states are definitely in a far more precarious situation.

elchivito · #12 08-28-2012, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I do think there is a lot of hope on the localvore/home grown front. We've seen a significant growth in that part of our business (that is the majority for us, we do carry some traditional hybrid varieties). Heirloom/heritage and standard open pollinated varieties are in high demand. I think we're safe in New England if only because there just isn't the acreage available and there has a been a fairly strong growth in numbers of small farms. You guys in the big states are definitely in a far more precarious situation.

I hope you're right, but I've a feeling the average U.S. grocery consumer only cares that his food is cheap and doesn't make him sick.

"How can a nation be called great if it's bread tastes like Kleenex?"
J. Child

raymr · #13 08-28-2012, 11:25 PM

No doubt the weeds and bugs will become chemical resistant and the Monsanto solution will be to keep modifying genes and developing more chemicals. It's a house of cards in my opinion. They don't fully understand what they are messing with. I hope there is a new push for smaller scale organic farming. There is still a lot to be learned about farming in a sustainable way, where you have an acceptable level of weeds and pests. Many of the large agri-business farmers won't eat the food from their own fields because of all the chemicals they need to apply.

Benz Dr. · #14 08-29-2012, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

You're talking Genetically Engineered, not Genetically Modified.

Let me preface this by saying that I'm no fan of Monsanto. Having said that, only about 1/2 (or less) of what we read about Monsanto on the internet is true. The majority of what we read about them when it comes to their genetically engineered traits and what they do to protect their patents is. The majority of what we read about them taking over the garden seed industry by buying seed companies is mostly false. The majority of what we read about the varieties that they "own" and any purchase of those varieties supports them is mostly false (most of those varieties have been off-patent for decades, can be grown by anyone for production as long as it is true to type and whatever royalty, no matter how miniscule or even specious the connecting to Monsanto is, they receive nothing).

The frightening prospect, if we put aside all other aspects of RR crops, is the very real (and now realized) possibility of weeds building up resistance to the glyphosate. Then what? Glyphosate resistant pigweed in cotton down south has the potential to be devastating. The other thing that is disturbing is the offspring of these weeds are showing resistance to it without directly coming in contact with the chemical. The parent plants are passing the resistance on to the next generation.

Several years ago we had a small patch of pigweed at the head land on one of our fields. At the time we were using Roundup as a burn down and Pursuit as a tank mix. The Pursuit quit working and this small patch was group 2 resistant. In other words, most if not all of the chemicals in group 2 would no longer kill this stuff. Continious use of a herbicide in the same family ( group 2 ) made this weed resistant.
I didn't know this stuff was resistant until it sarted showing up in other fields we had in the following years. Roundup will easily kill this stuff. So far I haven't seen any resistant weeds but I'm aware that there are some further south in the midwest. Pigweed is already resistant to trizine and has been for many years. THere are all kinds of trizine resistant weeds.
The main thing that causes resistance is using very low rates. At some point, the weed will be stunted but not killed. The seeds from this plant may have very mild resistance and if left to grow for a few years it's a very small possibity that over time the plant may become resistant. It doesn't happen over night. This was always a big problem with heavy carry over from one year to the next were there was always a presence in the soil. Weeds had a constant exsposure to the same chemical and eventually became resistant to it. The risk with contact herbicides, used at the correct rates, is much lower than those incorporated into the soil or those with persistant activity.

I'm not a corn grower but I kind of remember that there was little or no problem with cross pollenation between varietys. I don't remember there being any problems with the sweet corn we grew along the side of the field. The field corn remained the same and the sweet corn stayed the same. We bought new seed each year so it was never a problem.
The problem lies with seed contamination. Even if I didn't grow RR beans there's enough of this stuff floating around everywhere that it's bound to get mixed together. As long as you don't use Roundup to spray your fields I don't think Monsanto can do much to you. The people who get into trouble are those who try to grow RR beans and never take out a contract and never buy any seed.

Benz Dr. · #15 08-29-2012, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

No doubt the weeds and bugs will become chemical resistant and the Monsanto solution will be to keep modifying genes and developing more chemicals. It's a house of cards in my opinion. They don't fully understand what they are messing with. I hope there is a new push for smaller scale organic farming. There is still a lot to be learned about farming in a sustainable way, where you have an acceptable level of weeds and pests. Many of the large agri-business farmers won't eat the food from their own fields because of all the chemicals they need to apply.

Really? I didn't know that. What food would we be talking about? Field corn? Had a good feed lately? Soya beans? Tofu anyone?

Most of the things you see growing in large fields or in small ones is little more than the raw materials used to make other things. Very little in the way of field crops is used in direct human consumption. What is used that way has some very strict controls for purity. Pacific rim counties buy white hylum beans for use in Tofu but they have to be perfect or they'll refuse them. They are very fussy. One stained bean from a green weed and they'll reject the whole load. Any dark hylum beans and you'll be taking them back. And you cover the freight both ways.

I am farming in a sustainable way. If I don't make money and go out of business then someone else will come in who probably won't care as much as I do. I planted trees and shrubs along the fence rows to attract wild life.
We are right next to a highway that has wild flowers and tall prairie grasses for miles in each direction. This area contains lots of milkweed and other flowering plants. However, I rent most of my land and I'm not able to do anything with those places. Every time a new guy comes into the area out come the trees and fence rows. If I wasn't here all that stuff we have here wouldn't be here either.
When land is 8 - 10 K an acre every little bit is valuable. We have tree cutting bylaws concerning forested areas but there's nothing about scrub land or fence rows that are the real places where wildlife lives. Regardless of land values, the amount you make per acre, per year, is very small by comparisson - maybe 3 - 6% of the land value. Right now commodity prices are high due to the drought but in the past ten years the return would have been more like 1 -2% or less.