Remember that line in Patton where he goes: We're going to have to fight the Russians eventually anyway. It might as well be now while we've already got the army here to do it.

I did a bit of digging and it looks like the British had the same thought back in 1945.

Operation Unthinkable - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The British looked at any conflict with the Soviets as basically being a no win scenario and a quick glance at the equipment and personnel lists makes me think that they were probably right.

__________________
1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out
1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out)
1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)

"The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."

A tigers is harder to let go of than to grab.

In this case Patton was a fool.

I agree totally with B.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

There are a few alternative history books that explore this possibility.

After reading biographies of Stalin, Eisenhower's writings and Churchill's books, I think it would have been the wisest possible policy of the US and Great Britain. Stalin's greatest acheivement was convincing the West that the USSR was a great power at the end of WW2.

The Soviet economy was on the edge of collapse. The Soviet army was at the end of a tenuous supply line in Germany. Many Soviet divisions were made up of troops who reluctantly supported the USSR and would have fought for anyone else than the Germans.

Stalin managed to bluff the West into ceding him Eastern Europe. If the well supplied Allies from the US, France and Great Britain had attacked the Soviets from Bavaria and gone northwest, they could have cut off most of the Soviet army from their supplies and given freedom to Hungary, Czechoslavakia, Poland, the Baltic States and Yugoslavia, if not Belarus, Ukraine and a few other countries. Many Soviet troops would have joined the Allies, especially Ukrainian and Belarus troops.

__________________
1983 300SD "Guderian"
1987 MR2
2015 Camry
2015 Chevy Spark
2006 Hyundai Tucson

Actually...that bluff worked very well until the 1960's; the USSR had far fewer actual working missiles and weapons systems that we were led to believe.

__________________
86 560SL
With homebrew first gear start!
85 380SL
Daily Driver Project

http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/mercedes.htm

History is hard in hindsight. What would have been the true objective of taking on the russians on in 1945 has to be asked. Hitler was not even wise enough to learn from history.

The russians have one logical stratagy because it works so well. Draw the enemy in deep and then destroy them. Sacrifice heavily to mislead the invader is part and parcel of it. Patton would have fallen for it. Hitler and his generals did.. The russians might have been financially broke at the end of the war but had a very large and effective military arm still in place.

It is rumoured that general Macarther wanted to go on into china from Korea five or so years later. Trueman was at least smart enough to stop that. I think it is another case of where history would have ruled it another insane move.

Stalin may have developed his obstinate approach simply because he felt such a thing was possible. He wanted a buffer zone against insanity if it errupted. The russians principally broke the german army has to be a given.

My father once mentioned that even the german army was a formidable and skilled plus very experienced military force with superior equipment in general. He was active in Italy and northern europe in armour.

Define the objective.
Socialism ( Progressivism) was not confined to the borders of the USSR. It was already throughout Europe, Asia, and even here in the USA. I doubt that today's situation would have been significantly different even if we had the ability to destroy the USSR at the end of WW2.
Ideas know no country borders.

__________________
1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

I remember my parents, Dad Navy WWII and Mom working for the Department of the Navy during WWII, talking about that alot. They seemed to BELIEVE that we should have just turned around and beat Russia while we had the strength. I EXPECT that what made them believe this was the threat of the Cold War.

Enough time has now gone by that we have a whole adult generation that never felt the threat of the Cold War & would find it difficult to understand what it was like.

Your last comment Fulcrum, would have been right a year or two after VJ day, but at the time of VJ day, and even more so at the time of VE day, which is the point when Patton made those comments, The allies were strong enough in all ways to have successfully waged that war.

__________________
2001 SLK 320 six speed manual
2014 Porsche Cayenne six speed manual

Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

Excellent representation of the situation. I agree totally. It was not enough to fight the russian army in eastern europe we would have had to take moscow. ...Talk about a long tenuous supply line!

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

__________________
Remember, Safety Third!
'99 E300 Turbodiesel, '82 300TD, 1996 12V Cummins Turbo, '94 Neoplan - Detroit 6V92TA

Yes Tom, but you must remember, even though they made it to Berlin, the Russian Army was worn down to a nub as were their war goods. If they would have been fighting us, they wouldn't have gotten any MORE war goods from us either.

__________________
2001 SLK 320 six speed manual
2014 Porsche Cayenne six speed manual

Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

Irellivent. The western allies could never take the casualties necessary to beat the Russians. If the Whermacht couldn't do it, there is no way in hell the poms or yanks would have managed.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Stalin was able to bluff people after WW2 but what if we had had a stronger president who set off a couple of nukes on Russian territory, far from western lands, thuis all damage on Soviet property, and told them: "Want some more? No more b**ls**t then."

I'm tired of bullies being "appeased," that's what started WW2.

__________________
Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

x2.

Also, I can't believe that we can claim the Russians would have had a long tenuous supply line, compared to ours across an ocean and through war torn europe to face the Russian army? An army consisting of something like 500 rifle divisions and 50 tank divisions?

At the end of the war, we had something like 100 total divisions, 16-20 of them armored, and this combines both the pacific and European theaters.

They hugely outnumbered us, had more and better medium tanks in the T-34, were comfortable with far more bloody and attritional tactics, and had lost something like 10 million people in the war, so were far more motivated. The idea that we could have beat the Russians is preposterous at that moment in time.

Remember, Hitler launched operation Barbarossa with something like 4 million men a few years earlier, the largest invasion in the history of the world when the Russians were far weaker, and he still failed.

We would have had to use nuclear weapons almost immediately to offset the force advantage.

__________________
This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

What is your next move though? So you blow the heck out of a couple of places, how do you occupy the country? Russia's vast continental geography is their best weapon. Plus, they know how to live with the Russian winter, have the machinery for it and are willing to use people as an expendable resource unlike us.

No, it would not have worked even with nukes.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.