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Air&Road · #1 03-14-2013, 08:08 AM

Here he is fulfilling his role as Commander in Chief

At least it depicts him doing something besides stealing Trillions of dollars from our Grand Children in the form of MASSIVE debt!

http://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/obama-visits-troops.gif

kmaysob · #2 03-14-2013, 08:32 AM

If i were king of the foreessttt

JB3 · #3 03-14-2013, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Here he is fulfilling his role as Commander in Chief

At least it depicts him doing something besides stealing Trillions of dollars from our Grand Children in the form of MASSIVE debt!
U.S. Army tells soldiers don’t criticize Obama | Fellowship of the Minds

Larry, you really need to work out how the national debt works.

Constantly, you blame trillions of dollars of debt on Obama, as if the guy alone is off buying diamond encrusted castles built on captured hopes and dreams, and painted with the blood of patriots. In fact, blaming the massive debt on the current president is a constant conservative calling card, as if they suddenly woke up 5-6 years ago and realized that it existed.

Time to wake up. The national debt is a monster 30-40 years in the making at its current size. Obama is actually one of the most cost saving presidents we've had, and there is literally nothing he alone can do to keep it from growing on INTEREST ALONE ON THE CURRENT BALANCE. Same with Bush. I blame Bush for adding a couple trillion to debt in a fecklessly incompetent fashion, but he only added to it, he didn't create it.

Do you really need to be told how interest works? Do you really need to be told that there is a point where interest on the debt will exceed our GDP? Forget a balanced budget, what we need is a heavily imbalanced budget, one that generates enormous profit so we can pay down some principle and get this monster off our shoulder. That is nearly impossible.

How did we get into this position you may ask? 30-40 years of violating the most basic financial principle on earth.
1. Don't spend more that you earn, don't live beyond your means.

Why did we do that?
Whats the most popular political cause?
-you can get more and pay less for it.

The day this country starting slipping down the drain was the day that Politicians started to seriously sell this view to the American public in a complete violation of common sense, and to our shame, an entire generation of people grew up with the idea that violating this basic principle was not only possible, but an entitlement of being an American.

Shame on us, and shame on you for dumping the entire responsibility of this fiasco on whatever president currently holds office, because unless we have 20 presidents who all have the same economic goal, the problem will never resolve itself.

Right now Obama is saddled with debt incurred under 10 presidents, and still there are people who don't understand the basic principle of monster interest on a staggering debt. Remember Operation Desert storm? thats floating around in that monster debt, still not paid for these 20 years. If he fired every federal employee in the country including congress and himself, the debt would still grow based on interest.

elchivito · #4 03-14-2013, 09:30 AM

Active duty military personnel have always been restricted in how they criticize the President as well as other elected and appointed officials. I'm surprised you aren't aware of that Larry, you being a proud ex military man yourself. I can't imagine it's rare that officers remind their personnel of regulations.

UCMJ Article 88

No officer may use contemptuous words against the president, the VP or a bunch of other federal elected and appointed officials and members of congress.

Article 134 makes criminal speech which is prejudicial or brings discredit upon the Armed Forces.

DoD directive 1344.10 bans active duty members from campaigns.

These restrictions on the speech of active duty military personnel are not President Obama's doing. They've been in place for decades.

MTI · #5 03-14-2013, 10:04 AM

Ease up fellas, he hasn't gotten the spam emails that explain all that yet.

engatwork · #6 03-14-2013, 10:20 AM

Quote:

The day this country starting slipping down the drain was the day that Politicians started to seriously sell this view to the American public in a complete violation of common sense, and to our shame, an entire generation of people grew up with the idea that violating this basic principle was not only possible, but an entitlement of being an American.

Same way I see it.

barry12345 · #7 03-14-2013, 11:22 AM

Presenting a false illusion of realty is the real danger currrently of both the financial mess and continuing it. How does one really gauge how the economy is performing and where it is going with all the borrowing going on mind existing debt in the background? Both at the government and personal levels.

I do not know about you but does anyone notice the phone is not ringing as much with offers of more credit cards now as in the past? Too many people own far too much on their existing cards and have nothing of any tangiable worth to show for it. Other than they have strapped themselves pretty badly for the forseeable future. Actually sold some of their freedom if you wish for the times ahead.

It would be less than reasonable to assume that the overall effects will not be downloaded on the population. What troubles me is the methology of how this may occur. Plus the rate of implementation of any corrective factors. Everyone wants a soft landing but it may either not be possible or too selective in nature.

Personally I favour increased taxation over direct attacks on peoples existing asset bases. In one way or another we will getting those indirectly but not as bad perhaps if heavier taxation was enabled. I still even after this much time cannot get a really good handle on the real estate fiasco that occured.

Also too much of the population operating on simular debt based principals disturbs me. It too presents a false picture of the standard of living. There are some signs that things are starting to crack on the lower economic end of the population spectrum from a financial existance perspective.

Almost all the propaganda of the last twenty years or more has encouraged people to live beyond their sensible means. Many developed cultures have taken a different approach where their propaganda makes living on only a reduced porton of there income a way of life. That at least keeps their countries debt contained within their borders. A far more manageable situation than what we have.

It also allows those countries to expand their economic bases into other countries. At some point this becomes a really serious problem as some countries eventually will become mere satilite economic operations for other countries.

Many prices today are both enabled, manipulated and controlled to some extent by credit availability. The ideal that it keeps the economy going is fine if it did not also include so many potential downsides at the same time. North america has not prepared themselves for the bed of thorns that may lay ahead seemingly having no other option or policies than of making it pricklier all the time.

All I am pretty sure of is I see no will existing to address issues that will have perhaps a great negative effect on our grandchildren. Humans are not really smart to always be engaged in wars of one form or another. My belief is in todays world more than ever before it is currently economic forms of warfare. With north america on the losing end.

The rants that we are so much better off will get harder and harder to attempt to believe. If I borrow say three million I might also have a better standard of living than some of our forum members for a time. In the medium to long term though it was a false and unsustainable generation of a standard of living. Others including myself will pay for that type of stupidity in some way. Not just me.

Another thing that is getting my attention. A political system that has become seriously combative between parties and feels that is more important than the general welfare and well being of the people they are purported to serve. Or to put it another way their self interest and greed plus need for power exceeds common sense.

dynalow · #8 03-14-2013, 11:45 AM

It only took 3 posts to turn off topic?
Elchivito's comment is the only one relevant to the discussion. (and, if properly referenced, irrefutably accurate

)
Am I wrong (about the record)?

"What's debt got to do, got to do with it?"
.......(as in being related to the post or the link)

The remark in the linked article about the president not being the boss is wrong. The "taxpayers" have no constitutional authority whatsoever regarding control of the military afaik. But I don't claim to be a constitutional expert.

..........and I support the droning strategy. Just wish he'd do more of it. It might keep our jockeys in shape for the upcoming war with Iran. In case you missed Uncle Joe last week on PBS....
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june13/iran_03-04.html
Follows on the heels of a piece in TIME last week on the same topic....how the president has been building up forces in the ME on the QT.

JB3 · #9 03-14-2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynalow

It only took 3 posts to turn off topic?
Elchivito's comment is the only one relevant to the discussion. (and, if properly referenced, irrefutably accurate

)
Am I wrong (about the record)?

"What's debt got to do, got to do with it?"
.......(as in being related to the post or the link)

The remark in the linked article about the president not being the boss is wrong. The "taxpayers" have no constitutional authority whatsoever regarding control of the military afaik. But I don't claim to be a constitutional expert.

nonsene!

discussion of the debt is related to the OPs written assertion that the growth of the debt lays at the feet of the current president, so while not on topic of the usual character assassination theme from the OP, its still somewhat on topic related to his other statements.

from there, we can easily move to the entitlement issues, and the national acceptance of federal and personal debt as the breaks of the game for a better life, which is a completely unacceptable situation.

JB3 · #10 03-14-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345

Presenting a false illusion of realty is the real danger currrently of both the financial mess and continuing it. How does one really gauge how the economy is performing and where it is going with all the borrowing going on mind existing debt in the background? Both at the government and personal levels.

I do not know about you but does anyone notice the phone is not ringing as much with offers of more credit cards now as in the past? Too many people own far too much on their existing cards and have nothing of any tangiable worth to show for it. Other than they have strapped themselves pretty badly for the forseeable future. Actually sold some of their freedom if you wish for the times ahead.

It would be less than reasonable to assume that the overall effects will not be downloaded on the population. What troubles me is the methology of how this may occur. Plus the rate of implementation of any corrective factors. Everyone wants a soft landing but it may either not be possible or too selective in nature.

Personally I favour increased taxation over direct attacks on peoples existing asset bases. In one way or another we will getting those indirectly but not as bad perhaps if heavier taxation was enabled. I still even after this much time cannot get a really good handle on the real estate fiasco that occured.

Also too much of the population operating on simular debt based principals disturbs me. It too presents a false picture of the standard of living. There are some signs that things are starting to crack on the lower economic end of the population spectrum from a financial existance perspective.

Almost all the propaganda of the last twenty years or more has encouraged people to live beyond their sensible means. Many developed cultures have taken a different approach where their propaganda makes living on only a reduced porton of there income a way of life. That at least keeps their countries debt contained within their borders. A far more manageable situation than what we have.

It also allows those countries to expand their economic bases into other countries. At some point this becomes a really serious problem as some countries eventually will become mere satilite economic operations for other countries.

Many prices today are both enabled, manipulated and controlled to some extent by credit availability. The ideal that it keeps the economy going is fine if it did not also include so many potential downsides at the same time. North america has not prepared themselves for the bed of thorns that may lay ahead seemingly having no other option or policies than of making it pricklier all the time.

All I am pretty sure of is I see no will existing to address issues that will have perhaps a great negative effect on our grandchildren. Humans are not really smart to always be engaged in wars of one form or another. My belief is in todays world more than ever before it is currently economic forms of warfare. With north america on the losing end.

The rants that we are so much better off will get harder and harder to attempt to believe. If I borrow say three million I might also have a better standard of living than some of our forum members for a time. In the medium to long term though it was a false and unsustainable generation of a standard of living. Others including myself will pay for that type of stupidity in some way. Not just me.

Another thing that is getting my attention. A political system that has become seriously combative between parties and feels that is more important than the general welfare and well being of the people they are purported to serve. Or to put it another way their self interest and greed plus need for power exceeds common sense.

well said.

example of entitlement syndrome-
I lived with a guy years back who moved into an apartment with his wife. he needed a truck so I sold him a ranger I had for 400 bucks as a favor, we agreed that he should pay me as soon as his paycheck cleared 2 days later, and in the meantime he could use the truck.

Over the next 6 months, he struggled to make payments on this POS ranger, giving me 20 here, 30 there, finally paying it off. In the meantime, every time I went by his house, there were more and better things, expensive TVs, expensive lamps, computers, ect.
On several confrontations, he admitted that he was buying all that crap with a credit card running up a massive bill, and his struggle to pay for a 400 dollar truck over 6 months actually represented his true cash flow since he was paying me cash for it, but meanwhile hes floating on a massive cloud of things he can't afford, paid by credit card companies that will never collect once he declares bankruptcy. It was a sickening mess. It was obvious that he didn't consider debt to the credit card quite real, as if he had a license to run up as much debt as he wants getting toys for himself, and he deserved it because there was a way to do it. His debt to me he considered very real, and I went through his finances with him at one point before establishing what he could pay for this truck weekly since his paycheck had evaporated into debt payments he owed earlier.

I kept asking him, why are you buying all this crap if you can't afford it, and the answer was always that he wanted it, and it was clear that he lacked the self discipline to save up for the things he wanted.

I can't believe how many people ive met in life that are like this. My fear and impression is that a majority of people under 40 may have this kind of mentality in this country.

dynalow · #11 03-14-2013, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

nonsene!

discussion of the debt is related to the OPs written assertion that the growth of the debt lays at the feet of the current president, so while not on topic of the usual character assassination theme from the OP, its still somewhat on topic related to his other statements.

from there, we can easily move to the entitlement issues, and the national acceptance of federal and personal debt as the breaks of the game for a better life, which is a completely unacceptable situation.

Ok,
I just took an (ex)military view of the post. & ignored the ragging on about the debt. That is already beyond hopeless, imo. I wonder if someday historians will look back as David Cameron did in his 100th anniversary review of the sinking of the Titantic and analyze how America "broke up" and sank to whatever bottom/ reduced status awaits the country. When did we slip from sinking at, say, 100 degrees to an angle of 150 degrees? Or are we already at 180 and don't know it?

JamesDean · #12 03-14-2013, 12:31 PM

Off topic but,

Has anyone watched The West Wing?

elchivito · #13 03-14-2013, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

Off topic but,

Has anyone watched The West Wing?

It's interesting that you should mention that. I missed it when it was running but recently decided to watch all 7 seasons. I'm now in season 4. It's amazing how relevant it is to today. Aaron Sorkin hit it out of the park with West Wing.

JamesDean · #14 03-14-2013, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

It's interesting that you should mention that. I missed it when it was running but recently decided to watch all 7 seasons. I'm now in season 4. It's amazing how relevant it is to today. Aaron Sorkin hit it out of the park with West Wing.

He really did. Its an awesome show. I think I read in a few places that it was decently accurate to how things work in the white house, with the going back and forth between congress/etc.

elchivito · #15 03-14-2013, 01:08 PM

Only problem is sometimes I'll come inside for a few minutes and decide to watch the next episode and end up watching three or four.