How Many Billion does this now Add Up To? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Air&Road · #1 04-26-2013, 10:37 AM

So I think that by now, it has been firmly established that letting the gooberment choose which companies in which to invest our borrowed dollars is a bad idea.

Another Obama Green Project Folds after Getting Millions from Taxpayers | Judicial Watch

JamesDean · #2 04-26-2013, 01:04 PM

What Fisker’s failure tells us about Obama’s clean-energy programs

Your link doesn't mention that the loans were halted around two years ago and that the government sized assets.

Quote:

The Department of Energy finally halted all further loans to the company in June 2011 after having disbursed $192 million of a planned $529 million. (Since then, the government has seized some $21 million from Fisker’s accounts.)

Also, Fisker was only a small part of a larger electric vehicle development loan program...What about those loans?

Quote:

Nicholas Whitcombe, who directed the Energy Department’s advanced-vehicle loan program until recently, testified (pdf) that $8.4 billion in advanced-vehicle loans have been given out to five auto companies so far. While Fisker has performed poorly, he said, loans to firms like Ford, Nissan, and Tesla have helped build factories and are all scheduled to be repaid.

Fundamentally, however, I still agree the government should not be an investment company.

greazzer · #3 04-26-2013, 01:20 PM

I am guessing it really does not matter. The administration has an agenda which, for the most part, has been a failure. Actually, if you take a look at all of the "agenda's", virtually everyone has been a failure. Will the media or the history books report the "facts" or the net results of one failure after another ? I highly doubt it. I am thinkinig the history books will be repleat with the "it's Bush's fault ..." ... "and B.O. saved America ..."

My favorite is the administration's jobs & economic recovery programs. Each job "created" only cost the tax payers a tiny sum of a hair over $300,000.00. When everything is said and done, who will really pay that tab ? Hmmmm.... any takers. Here is a list of the bigger failures in the green energy agenda. I could not locate a list of winners, yet ... And, everyone forgets to mention and highlight the legions of federal workers on the public's tab who must administer all of these programs, agendas, entitlements, and "gifts". This is my guess why B.O. hates the sequestration and has hopped on the campaign trail again, and again, and again. That is, without the legions of federal workers to hand out these programs and gifts, his social agenda of wealth redistribution would come to a slow down.

"So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. This list includes only those companies that received federal money from the Obama Administration’s Department of Energy and other agencies. The amount of money indicated does not reflect how much was actually received or spent but how much was offered. The amount also does not include other state, local, and federal tax credits and subsidies, which push the amount of money these companies have received from taxpayers even higher."

1.Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
2.SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
3.Solyndra ($535 million)*
4.Beacon Power ($43 million)*
5.Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
6.SunPower ($1.2 billion)
7.First Solar ($1.46 billion)
8.Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
9.EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
10.Amonix ($5.9 million)
11.Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
12.Abound Solar ($400 million)*
13.A123 Systems ($279 million)*
14.Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
15.Johnson Controls ($299 million)
16.Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
17.ECOtality ($126.2 million)
18.Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
19.Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
20.Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
21.Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
22.Range Fuels ($80 million)*
23.Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
24.Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
25.Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
26.GreenVolts ($500,000)
27.Vestas ($50 million)
28.LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
29.Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
30.Navistar ($39 million)
31.Satcon ($3 million)*
32.Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
33.Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

The problem begins with the issue of government picking winners and losers in the first place. Venture capitalist firms exist for this very reason, and they choose what to invest in by looking at companies’ business models and deciding if they are worthy. When the government plays venture capitalist, it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves or because it sounds nice to “invest” in green energy."

So, Larry, here is your challange:

PLEASE PROVIDE A LIST OF SUCCESS STORIES IN THE GREEN ENERGY AGENDA ?

Air&Road · #4 04-26-2013, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

I am guessing it really does not matter. The administration has an agenda which, for the most part, has been a failure. Actually, if you take a look at all of the "agenda's", virtually everyone has been a failure. Will the media or the history books report the "facts" or the net results of one failure after another ? I highly doubt it. I am thinkinig the history books will be repleat with the "it's Bush's fault ..." ... "and B.O. saved America ..."

My favorite is the administration's jobs & economic recovery programs. Each job "created" only cost the tax payers a tiny sum of a hair over $300,000.00. When everything is said and done, who will really pay that tab ? Hmmmm.... any takers. Here is a list of the bigger failures in the green energy agenda. I could not locate a list of winners, yet ... And, everyone forgets to mention and highlight the legions of federal workers on the public's tab who must administer all of these programs, agendas, entitlements, and "gifts". This is my guess why B.O. hates the sequestration and has hopped on the campaign trail again, and again, and again. That is, without the legions of federal workers to hand out these programs and gifts, his social agenda of wealth redistribution would come to a slow down.

"So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. This list includes only those companies that received federal money from the Obama Administration’s Department of Energy and other agencies. The amount of money indicated does not reflect how much was actually received or spent but how much was offered. The amount also does not include other state, local, and federal tax credits and subsidies, which push the amount of money these companies have received from taxpayers even higher."

1.Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
2.SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
3.Solyndra ($535 million)*
4.Beacon Power ($43 million)*
5.Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
6.SunPower ($1.2 billion)
7.First Solar ($1.46 billion)
8.Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
9.EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
10.Amonix ($5.9 million)
11.Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
12.Abound Solar ($400 million)*
13.A123 Systems ($279 million)*
14.Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
15.Johnson Controls ($299 million)
16.Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
17.ECOtality ($126.2 million)
18.Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
19.Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
20.Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
21.Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
22.Range Fuels ($80 million)*
23.Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
24.Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
25.Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
26.GreenVolts ($500,000)
27.Vestas ($50 million)
28.LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
29.Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
30.Navistar ($39 million)
31.Satcon ($3 million)*
32.Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
33.Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

The problem begins with the issue of government picking winners and losers in the first place. Venture capitalist firms exist for this very reason, and they choose what to invest in by looking at companies’ business models and deciding if they are worthy. When the government plays venture capitalist, it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves or because it sounds nice to “invest” in green energy."

So, Larry, here is your challange:

PLEASE PROVIDE A LIST OF SUCCESS STORIES IN THE GREEN ENERGY AGENDA ?

Thanks for thinking of me, but sorry, I don't think that I'm up to such an impossible task.

greazzer · #5 04-26-2013, 03:15 PM

LOL ! I looked, and no dice for me too. I know the apologist point out that there were technically 1,200 or so "green energey" programs, and if 50 or so flop, then that is such a tiny percentage. However, here's a dirty little secret: A gift to a small time B.O. contributer in the arena of $5,000 or $10,000 or $25,000 for him or her to squander on some bogus "green energy" project really does not count in my book and that skews the numbers.

Well, Larry, you let me down ...

t walgamuth · #6 04-26-2013, 07:30 PM

ON the economic front, the economy Is humming along better and better all the time. So much better if the government had let all those companies fail and saved all that tax money, right?

Chris Bell · #7 04-26-2013, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

ON the economic front, the economy Is humming along better and better all the time. So much better if the government had let all those companies fail and saved all that tax money, right?

If you think this economy is doing well you're delusional.

rscurtis · #8 04-26-2013, 08:36 PM

Sorry to disagree, Tom, but the economy is "improving" in spite of the President, not because of him.

JamesDean · #9 04-27-2013, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

Sorry to disagree, Tom, but the economy is "improving" in spite of the President, not because of him.

Is there any data to back up this claim?

JamesDean · #10 04-27-2013, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

LOL ! I looked, and no dice for me too. I know the apologist point out that there were technically 1,200 or so "green energey" programs, and if 50 or so flop, then that is such a tiny percentage. However, here's a dirty little secret: A gift to a small time B.O. contributer in the arena of $5,000 or $10,000 or $25,000 for him or her to squander on some bogus "green energy" project really does not count in my book and that skews the numbers.

Well, Larry, you let me down ...

wut?

50/1200 is 4% failure rate.

You're combining two different things here... Failure rate analysis of a government loan program and some other thing contributor conspiracy that has no correlation or bearing on the data...

I'm not apologizing for anything. I'm looking at the data as you presented 50 out of 1,200 failures is 4% failure rate.

From a business stand point 4% failure rate might a perfectly acceptable rate. You cannot guarantee 100% success on investments.

I still believe the government should not be playing the role of an investment firm, however they are and probably will be for the rest of time...

sloride · #11 04-27-2013, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

I am guessing it really does not matter. The administration has an agenda which, for the most part, has been a failure. Actually, if you take a look at all of the "agenda's", virtually everyone has been a failure. Will the media or the history books report the "facts" or the net results of one failure after another ? I highly doubt it. I am thinkinig the history books will be repleat with the "it's Bush's fault ..." ... "and B.O. saved America ..."

My favorite is the administration's jobs & economic recovery programs. Each job "created" only cost the tax payers a tiny sum of a hair over $300,000.00. When everything is said and done, who will really pay that tab ? Hmmmm.... any takers. Here is a list of the bigger failures in the green energy agenda. I could not locate a list of winners, yet ... And, everyone forgets to mention and highlight the legions of federal workers on the public's tab who must administer all of these programs, agendas, entitlements, and "gifts". This is my guess why B.O. hates the sequestration and has hopped on the campaign trail again, and again, and again. That is, without the legions of federal workers to hand out these programs and gifts, his social agenda of wealth redistribution would come to a slow down.

"So far, 34 companies that were offered federal support from taxpayers are faltering — either having gone bankrupt or laying off workers or heading for bankruptcy. This list includes only those companies that received federal money from the Obama Administration’s Department of Energy and other agencies. The amount of money indicated does not reflect how much was actually received or spent but how much was offered. The amount also does not include other state, local, and federal tax credits and subsidies, which push the amount of money these companies have received from taxpayers even higher."

1.Evergreen Solar ($25 million)*
2.SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
3.Solyndra ($535 million)*
4.Beacon Power ($43 million)*
5.Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
6.SunPower ($1.2 billion)
7.First Solar ($1.46 billion)
8.Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
9.EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
10.Amonix ($5.9 million)
11.Fisker Automotive ($529 million)
12.Abound Solar ($400 million)*
13.A123 Systems ($279 million)*
14.Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($700,981)*
15.Johnson Controls ($299 million)
16.Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
17.ECOtality ($126.2 million)
18.Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
19.Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
20.Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
21.Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
22.Range Fuels ($80 million)*
23.Thompson River Power ($6.5 million)*
24.Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
25.Azure Dynamics ($5.4 million)*
26.GreenVolts ($500,000)
27.Vestas ($50 million)
28.LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($151 million)
29.Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
30.Navistar ($39 million)
31.Satcon ($3 million)*
32.Konarka Technologies Inc. ($20 million)*
33.Mascoma Corp. ($100 million)
*Denotes companies that have filed for bankruptcy.

The problem begins with the issue of government picking winners and losers in the first place. Venture capitalist firms exist for this very reason, and they choose what to invest in by looking at companies’ business models and deciding if they are worthy. When the government plays venture capitalist, it tends to reward companies that are connected to the policymakers themselves or because it sounds nice to “invest” in green energy."

So, Larry, here is your challange:

PLEASE PROVIDE A LIST OF SUCCESS STORIES IN THE GREEN ENERGY AGENDA ?

Larry you let me down on that easy challenge. The success stories from the green energy agenda are the campaign coffers of the politicians that push to get those loans (gifts or repayments) approved for doing fund raising for the crooks. The top CEO of Solydra supposedly raised over five million for the B.O. reelection so that one was payed back by Joe taxpayer at a rate of 100:1.

greazzer · #12 04-27-2013, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

wut?

50/1200 is 4% failure rate.

You're combining two different things here... Failure rate analysis of a government loan program and some other thing contributor conspiracy that has no correlation or bearing on the data...

I'm not apologizing for anything. I'm looking at the data as you presented 50 out of 1,200 failures is 4% failure rate.

From a business stand point 4% failure rate might a perfectly acceptable rate. You cannot guarantee 100% success on investments.

I still believe the government should not be playing the role of an investment firm, however they are and probably will be for the rest of time...

I should have been a little clearer. The administration is using the $5K grants, et cet, as part of their analysis. Funny thing ... who is going to report on a $5K failure? The numbers are incredibly skewed if you keep these five and dimes in the mix. Take out the five and dimes, for example, and only keep an eye on the million dollar and up, or five hundred thousand dollar and up, et cet., and the failure rate is pushing 70-80% right now.

Pooka · #13 04-27-2013, 07:43 PM

And how many of these ventures were funded by the G. W. Bush administration?

The answer might confuse you on the entire subject.

spdrun · #14 04-27-2013, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

ON the economic front, the economy Is humming along better and better all the time. So much better if the government had let all those companies fail and saved all that tax money, right?

Not convinced it is -- stock valuations seem to have become divorced from the economy as a whole. See recent GDP, consumer confidence, PMI, manufacturing numbers as an example. We might in fact be entering a mini-recession this winter.

OTOH, my Sunpower stock went up from below $4/share this winter to about $13 right now, so I'm not complaining too hard.