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kerry 06-26-2013 05:43 PM
I think you're talking past each other. Martureo thinks Jesus is of 'extreme importance' if someone thinks he's god. JB3 thinks he's of extreme importance if he's having a widespread social effect. Those are two very different issues.

greazzer 06-26-2013 05:46 PM
Hey, Mr. Word "Hell" -- looks like the actual word "hell" was not invented until the 8th century AD. So, it looks like "modern" man opted to just use a different word when identifying the words chosen by Jesus. But, it's pretty clear what Jesus meant when referring to "hell" and the words in the Bible -- Sheol, Tartarus, Hades, and Gehenna. Again, Jesus was very clear relative to the consequences imposed for one's actions and beliefs. OR, are you saying Jesus was somewhat vague ? If so, show me some examples please.

JB3 06-26-2013 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 3166262)
He said there will always be those who disbelieve, mock Jesus, and pose all sorts of believed clever commentary about God and Jesus in an attempt to show the world just how much smarter that person is..
This is a standard character assassination ploy. Obviously those non believers are only driven by the baser motivations, like showing people how smart they are, and whatnot. :rolleyes:
I suppose it comes as a shock to you that anyone could take a look a religion, and decide that they don't believe in it out of logic and reason.

Quote:
I find it very funny how so many atheist on this forum don't believe in God because they find God strong arming those who believe. I have never seen anyone's arm twisted.
huh? Remind me again where people said they don't believe in god because they believe god strong arms those who believe?

wouldn't they have to believe god exists to believe he was strong arming?

I don't recall where anyone said this, but I do recall that people didn't want state decisions made by religion or religious special interest groups attempting to force specific religious values on other people.

An athiest usually believes that religion is a product of man, not that they think god is too tough with his followers.

JB3 06-26-2013 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3166268)
I think you're talking past each other. Martureo thinks Jesus is of 'extreme importance' if someone thinks he's god. JB3 thinks he's of extreme importance if he's having a widespread social effect. Those are two very different issues.

better said than I was saying it, thats pretty much what i was trying to get across.

martureo 06-26-2013 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry (Post 3166268)
I think you're talking past each other. Martureo thinks Jesus is of 'extreme importance' if someone thinks he's god. JB3 thinks he's of extreme importance if he's having a widespread social effect. Those are two very different issues.
Thank you for clearing that up nicely. I'm sitting here rubbing my eyes because as JB3's posts display he has switched topics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JB3 (Post 3166048)
Secondly its only after the extreme passage of time that he's been deified, several hundred years before he was made into a religious figure of extreme importance.
Just as I said.... JB3 should stay on topic. And obviously I proved him wrong.

martureo 06-26-2013 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB3 (Post 3166266)
where was this again? I don't see any proof. I see you saying that a document that calls Christ god is proof. Proof enough for you apparently



see above.




I mixed up the edict of Milan with the edict of Thessalonica, though again, im not sure what the big arguement is here for you. These edicts were several hundred years after christ, up until 311 with the edict of toleration, then 313 with the edict of Milan where Constatine himself converts and also returns church property, and finally made a state religion with the edict of thessalonica as you state.

How is this not in line with what I stated, about several hundred years for Christ to become a religious figure of extreme importance?
  1. If you're going to make a statement of fact, get it right.
  2. If you're going to make an assertion based on a statement of historical fact. Get your facts straight in the first place.
  3. I'll repeat myself again since you apparently didn't remember. Constantine converted to Arianism (not Christianity) on his death bed in the year 337 AD NOT in 313 AD.

Sheesh....:rolleyes:

greazzer 06-26-2013 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB3 (Post 3166270)
This is a standard character assassination ploy. Obviously those non believers are only driven by the baser motivations, like showing people how smart they are, and whatnot. :rolleyes:
I suppose it comes as a shock to you that anyone could take a look a religion, and decide that they don't believe in it out of logic and reason.

Funny. assuming the commentary of this forum by many is representative of the world of atheist, it's not any character assassination ploys. It's an observation. And, it is a shocker that folks are actually using their "logic" and "reason" and comment as they do when discussing God, Jesus, and Christianity.

huh? Remind me again where people said they don't believe in god because they believe god strong arms those who believe?

Take a peek at some other threads and posts... seem pretty readily available.

wouldn't they have to believe god exists to believe he was strong arming?


I don't recall where anyone said this, but I do recall that people didn't want state decisions made by religion or religious special interest groups attempting to force specific religious values on other people.

What? We have a seperation of Church and State in this country, unlike most muslim countries. Because our country was founded on certain Judeo-Christian values, of course our current laws will have those same themes. However, the attack on Christianity goes much deeper now, and one is blind if you don't see it. The new social progressive agenda has been very clear on this point.

An athiest usually believes that religion is a product of man, not that they think god is too tough with his followers.
An athiest simply does not believe in God, regardless.

JB3 06-26-2013 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martureo (Post 3166274)
Thank you for clearing that up nicely. I'm sitting here rubbing my eyes because as JB3's posts display he has switched topics.




Just as I said.... JB3 should stay on topic. And obviously I proved him wrong.

why did you not underline "several hundred years"? You did not prove me wrong, you actually reinforced what I said.

The difference is not really an issue of wrong or right, its in what we consider a religious figure of extreme importance. I gather you figure he was a religious figure of extreme importance because he was Jesus Christ.

I figure the same when Christianity became enormously widespread, and as I said, that was not until several hundred years later.

Id also call a couple hundred years for a man to become a god about right as well, and have it believed widespread.

That his immediate followers called him a god and you can refer to stuff they wrote means exactly that, his immediate followers called him a god.

JB3 06-26-2013 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 3166277)
An athiest simply does not believe in God, regardless.
can you multi quote this? hard to read

greazzer 06-26-2013 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB3 (Post 3166280)
can you multi quote this? hard to read
I certainly failed multi-quote 101 ... but my commentary is there, in the grey for most of it. I should have just addressed the most inaccurate statement made, and let the remainder fall out through the normal course. :D My bad.

kerry 06-26-2013 06:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martureo (Post 3166276)
Constantine converted to Arianism (not Christianity) on his death bed in the year 337 AD NOT in 313 AD.[/LIST]
Sheesh....:rolleyes:
Arians considered themselves Christians. You say they are not Christians because you think they were heretical. They don't concede that point. He converted to a form of Christianity which a more powerful form of Christianity tried to stamp out.

JB3 06-26-2013 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by martureo (Post 3166276)
  1. If you're going to make a statement of fact, get it right.
  2. If you're going to make an assertion based on a statement of historical fact. Get your facts straight in the first place.
  3. I'll repeat myself again since you apparently didn't remember. Constantine converted to Arianism (not Christianity) on his death bed in the year 337 AD NOT in 313 AD.

Sheesh....:rolleyes:
so he did not have essentially an epiphany at the battle of Milvian bridge where he suddenly started honoring the christian god after supposedly seeing a vision? That was obviously the turning point, after that he was a patron of the christian church.

JB3 06-26-2013 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 3166282)
I certainly failed multi-quote 101 ... but my commentary is there, in the grey for most of it. I should have just addressed the most inaccurate statement made, and let the remainder fall out through the normal course. :D My bad.

the multi quote thing is the little word balloon 4th from the end on the right side above the typing window. You can highlight and hit that word balloon and it drops the whole thing into quotes, pretty nice feature. Took me forever to find it too.

JB3 06-26-2013 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 3166277)
Funny. assuming the commentary of this forum by many is representative of the world of atheist, it's not any character assassination ploys. It's an observation. And, it is a shocker that folks are actually using their "logic" and "reason" and comment as they do when discussing God, Jesus, and Christianity.


its always surprising when you come across people who believe things completely different from what you do. We all have a tendency to vilify people we don't understand, or have opinions where we cannot follow their logic.
You seem to see any discussion of the concept of god or jesus in the abstract as people trying to show how smart they are and so on.


Quote:
What? We have a seperation of Church and State in this country, unlike most muslim countries. Because our country was founded on certain Judeo-Christian values, of course our current laws will have those same themes. However, the attack on Christianity goes much deeper now, and one is blind if you don't see it. The new social progressive agenda has been very clear on this point.
we do not have a true separation, though certainly better than many countries. Adding "under god" to the pledge or allegiance is a perfect example of religious special interests being rewarded despite separation of church and state.

Quote:
An athiest simply does not believe in God, regardless.
as a religious man, how are you in a position to state what an athiest believes and does not believe, or why?



aklim 06-26-2013 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greazzer (Post 3166226)
75% is a huge body of people considering the group is 300 million+
BTW, at one time more than 75% of the people thought the earth was flat, that going faster than the speed of sound will have devastating effects, it was ok to enslave people, etc, etc.


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