Heaven, Hell and the Devil - Page 28 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

martureo · #**406** 06-28-2013, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Promise?
You have ran this game before.

I promise not to talk to JB3 on this topic again.

Is that clear enough for you?

JB3 · #**407** 06-28-2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Promise?
You have ran this game before.

apparently its personal. Shame, was an interesting discussion, but I guess its only interesting from his end when he is berating his opposition, not when hes caught in a contradiction.
the funny thing is that he could easily admit to the contradiction and the conversation could continue, but apparently hes angry about it. Too bad. Id love to talk about carbon dating and dinosaurs with pastor M.

JamesDean · #**408** 06-28-2013, 04:10 PM

I actually enjoyed reading this thread. Most of the political ones always end the same and are boring no on actually tried to discuss topics. This was more discussion and less attack the messenger than the political threads.

Also I saw this online yesterday and lol'd:
imgur: the simple image sharer

JB3 · #**409** 06-28-2013, 04:12 PM

first, martureo states in post 394-

Quote:

The three centuries of scholars I mentioned, the majority of them were/are atheists.

so heres what wikipedia has to say on jesus literacy-
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

"There are strong indications of a high illiteracy rate among the lower socio-economic classes in the Roman Empire at large, with various scholars estimating 3% to 10% literacy rates.[76][98] However, the Babylonian Talmud (which dates to 3rd-5th century) states that the Jews had schools in nearly every one of their towns.[98]
Geoffrey Bromiley states that as a "religion of the book" Judaism emphasized reading and study, and people would read to themselves in a loud voice, rather than silently, a practice encouraged (Erubin 54a) by the Rabbis.[98] James D. G. Dunn states that Second Temple Judaism placed a great deal of emphasis on the study of Torah, and the "writing prophets" of Judaism assumed that sections of the public could read.[76] Dunn and separately Donahue and Harrington refer to the statement by first century historian Josephus in Against Apion (2.204) that the "law requires that they (children) be taught to read" as an indication of high literacy rate among some first century Jews.[76][99] Richard A. Horsley, on the other hand, states that the Josephus reference to learn "grammata" may not necessarily refer to reading and may be about an oral tradition.[100]
There are a number of passages from the Gospels which state or imply that Jesus could read.[101] The Jesus Seminar stated that references in the Gospels to Jesus reading and writing may be fictions.[102] John Dominic Crossan who views Jesus as a peasant states that he would not have been literate.[103] Craig A. Evans states that it should not be assumed that Jesus was a peasant, and that his extended travels may indicate some measure of financial means.[104] Evans states that existing data indicate that Jesus could read scripture, paraphrase and debate it, but that does not imply that he received formal scribal training, given the divergence of his views from the existing religious background of his time.[105] James Dunn states that it is "quite credible" that Jesus could read.[76] John P. Meier further concludes that the literacy of Jesus probably extended to the ability to read and comment on sophisticated theological and literary works".[106]

lets see whos mentioned-

Quote:

Geoffrey Bromiley-
Geoffrey W. Bromiley

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Geoffrey W. Bromiley (1915 - August 7, 2009) was a church historian and historical theologian. He was professor emeritus at Fuller Theological Seminary, having been Professor of Church History and Historical Theology there from 1958 until his retirement in 1987."[1]
Bromiley, born in Bromley Cross, Lancashire, England, in 1915, earned his MA at Cambridge University and his PhD, DLitt, and DD at the University of Edinburgh. Ordained in the Church of England, he served from 1951 to 1958 as Rector of St. Thomas’s Church, Edinburgh. In 1958, he accepted the appointment as Professor of Church History and Historical Theology at Fuller, where he served until his retirement in 1987."[1]
Geoffrey W. Bromiley died on August 7, 2009.

hmm, doesn't look like an athiest

Quote:

James Dunn (theologian)

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(Redirected from James D. G. Dunn)
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James D. G. ("Jimmy") Dunn (born 1939) is a leading British New Testament scholar who was for many years the Lightfoot Professor of Divinity in the Department of Theology at the University of Durham. Since his retirement he has been made Emeritus Lightfoot Professor. He has worked broadly from within the Protestant tradition. Dunn is especially associated with the New Perspective on Paul, along with N. T. (Tom) Wright and E. P. Sanders. He is credited with coining this phrase during his 1982 Manson Memorial Lecture.[citation needed]
He is a Methodist Local Preacher.

well gee, I doubt a methodist preacher is an athiest, lets continue-

Quote:

Richard A. Horsley

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Richard A. Horsley is Distinguished Professor of Liberal Arts and the Study of Religion at the University of Massachusetts, Boston.[1]
He described his view of the historical Jesus in these words (Jesus and the Spiral of Violence, pp. 207-208):

Horsley has a PhD from Harvard and previously taught at Wesleyan University.[3]

hmm, could be an athiest, but I doubt it.

Quote:

Craig A. Evans

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Craig Alan Evans is a biblical scholar and author. He has written widely on the historical Jesus, New Testament textual criticism, and early Christianity.
He earned his Bachelor of Arts in history and philosophy from Claremont McKenna College, a Master of Divinity from Western Baptist Seminary in Portland, Oregon, and his Master of Arts and Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Claremont Graduate University in southern California.

A master of divinity.
next-

Quote:

John P. Meier

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other people named John Meier, see John Meier (disambiguation).
John Paul Meier (born 1942) is a biblical scholar and Catholic priest. He attended St. Joseph's Seminary and College (B.A., 1964), Gregorian University Rome (S.T.L, 1968), and the Biblical Institute Rome (S.S.D., 1976). He is author of the series A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (4 v.), six other books, and more than 70 articles for peer-reviewed or solicited journals or books.[1]
Meier is William K. Warren Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. His fields include biblical studies and Christianity and Judaism in antiquity.[2][1] Before coming to Notre Dame, he was professor of New Testament at The Catholic University of America.

A catholic priest. So basically in the poor mans verison of research, searching wikipedia, there is debate on Jesus's literacy even among current scholars, who instead of being athiest as martureo claims, are most likely religious men.
As you can see above, 5 scholars mentioned in the page all happen to be biblical scholars and many priests of one type or another.

The idea of being trained as a scribe specifically is interesting, something martureo could have simply mentioned instead of petulance. Basically its clear scholars don't know if he could write, but it seems a majority believe he could read, and we can't even agree on his profession or socioeconomic status in the first place.

So we are back to square one, we just don't know, not enough information

greazzer · #**410** 06-28-2013, 04:41 PM

Out of curiosity, why does a certain handful of posters appear to dogpile on Martureo? It's almost the same deal with Larry Bible. Do you really hate the message that much? If so, well, ... I won't go there ...

kerry · #**411** 06-28-2013, 04:44 PM

It's because Martureo claims we hold to falsehoods so we have to act in self-defense.

martureo · #**412** 06-28-2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

It's because Martureo claims we hold to falsehoods so we have to act in self-defense.

It's sad though that even a person such as yourself who claims to be in higher education can't verify the claims or step in when he sees some bad information being passed around.

So Kerry, where is your information on the literacy rates in 1st century Judea?

What about the claim that Jesus wasn't deified until several centuries later?

Huh? Where is your scholarly integrity? Why haven't you spoken up?

davidmash · #**413** 06-28-2013, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

Out of curiosity, why does a certain handful of posters appear to dogpile on Martureo? It's almost the same deal with Larry Bible. Do you really hate the message that much? If so, well, ... I won't go there ...

Interesting. I see something entirely different. Your POV is similar to his. Do feel ranged up on?

martureo · #**414** 06-28-2013, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

Interesting. I see something entirely different. Your POV is similar to his. Do feel ranged up on?

I wonder why it is that Chilcutt, you, James Dean and a few others suddenly show up on the scene when someone else is poking fun at me?

Do you guys all sign on at once, or do you take turns?

JB3 · #**415** 06-28-2013, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

Out of curiosity, why does a certain handful of posters appear to dogpile on Martureo? It's almost the same deal with Larry Bible. Do you really hate the message that much? If so, well, ... I won't go there ...

"appear" is the correct word. Im just talking back and forth with him, or im talking and hes berating for the most part. Read back and prove me wrong.
Actually I would appreciate if he would simply deliver his message and discuss back without his signature style which has a tendency to put people off. He might find that if he stops telling people how ignorant, stupid, and wrong they are without actually responding to them, he might reach new points in conversation and new understandings with people who hold different beliefs.

If you don't understand why people argue or respond to Larry Bible, even though you share some beliefs with him, then im not sure it can be explained.

davidmash · #**416** 06-28-2013, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I wonder why it is that Chilcutt, you, James Dean and a few others suddenly show up on the scene when someone else is poking fun at me?

Do you guys all sign on at once, or do you take turns?

Because it is fun. Your condescending patronizing narsacistic attitude is a huge target and difficult to resist.

greazzer · #**417** 06-28-2013, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

Interesting. I see something entirely different. Your POV is similar to his. Do feel ranged up on?

Do you feel ranged up on: Not really.

My POV ? Point of View ? I am guessing that's the meaning of POV. Yes, we are both Christians.

greazzer · #**418** 06-28-2013, 05:43 PM

If you don't understand why people argue or respond to Larry Bible, even though you share some beliefs with him, then im not sure it can be explained.

I did not take the time to go back years and years to read posts. Actually, I just started participating on the open forum, i.d., less than a year I believe. Going back about a year, I can say from what I saw there is a concerted effort by a handful of folks who do in fact dog pile on him. Actually, the tactic has been for someone to bait Larry on some trival point, then because of some sort of discprepancy, there's this big hoop-la over nothing, where the others in the anti-Larry camp jump on the dog pile. It almost seems like a practiced, orchestrated game plan. And yes, there is a tight knit pack of athesit on the forum as well as left wingers and B.O. apologist and there appears to be a tight marching formation within these group. Just my perceptions, accept them or not. Same deal with Martureo from what I can see. But again, I have not surfed the past 5 years of commentary, threads, and posts so maybe I am missing something.

MS Fowler · #**419** 06-28-2013, 05:48 PM

If I may add a bit, here....
Christians believe Jesus was/is God because Jesus made that claim, and the Jews of his day clearly understood him to have made that claim. In speaking about "The Father", Jesus said, "The Father and I are One". Not much of a claim to out minds, but look at the reaction of the Jews. They picked up stones, to stone Jesus, and he asked them why were they about to stone him, and they replied--"..but you being a mere man claim to be God" They got what he was saying, and being good Jews, were going to carry out the prescribed punishment--stoning until dead.

There are many other arguments that can be made, but, like this one, they rely on the Scriptures. If you reject the Scriptures, then there is little to discuss.

Skippy · #**420** 06-28-2013, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

I actually enjoyed reading this thread. Most of the political ones always end the same and are boring no on actually tried to discuss topics. This was more discussion and less attack the messenger than the political threads.

Also I saw this online yesterday and lol'd:
imgur: the simple image sharer

I've been skimming this thread. I'm always amazed at how many responses these religion threads get, considering that I've never heard of an internet discussion turning a theist into a non-theist or vice versa.

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