Putting don't feed the animals in perspective
 

Sent to me by a friend:).

Humans are another form of animal...I like it! LOL

I don't believe that is an accurate quote of the parks department.

Actually, that may not be a verbatim NP quote, but the reasoning is partially correct. The other portion of course is that when animals lose their fear of humans they come into more contact with them and more humans get eaten. Not good PR for the NPS.

- Peter.

Is the point of the quoted comments that you and your friend would like to see 46 million people die of starvation :confused::confused::confused:

They're not going to starve! They're all lazy and just need a kick in the pants, even those who are old and infirm, or maybe have serious illness. We just need to break them from their couch-sitting, Oprah-watching, bon-bon-noshing bad habits.

Food stamp recipients = animals.
We get it.

This rightwing hatred of the poor originated on Raging Bull, it then got posted to FaceBook, where it went viral among the floundering tea baggers.
There is no indication anywhere that any Park Service warning sign about feeding wildlife has the quoted wording.
Just more hate filled email forwards sent by "a friend".

To be followed up with the usual "well I don't care if it's true or who wrote it I agree with it."
Yeah. We know.

Everybody knows they all drive Escalades and have iPhones. Jeez

100 Million Dollars of food stamps redeemed by military families.

Those gold-bricking freeloaders....:rolleyes:

Some folks are so caught up in their preconceived notions of who poor people are, that they end up 5hitting on the very people that they claim to honor.
Sad.

To be fair the food stamp program is extremely corrupt.

:(Ya' think?

If the park service didn't say it then it can't be true.

How is that?

Definition of "extremely corrupt" please?

Our ongoing work includes looking at FNS’ methodologies for determining its rate of SNAP trafficking (which it estimates at 1 percent) and its rate of improper payments (estimated at about 3.8 percent).

http://www.usda.gov/oig/webdocs/IGtestimony120308.pdf

Yeah, I know someone who works on the anti corruption side of the state of CT's program, he is retiring he can't stand it anymore.

If it is true, why claim the Park Service said something they didn't?:rolleyes:

"Starvation is God's way of punishing those that have no faith in Capitalism.
~~ Ron Cobb, Cartoonist.


Geddit:confused:

You dance around a minor point and ignore the larger point. Why?

Well, that proves it.

:confused:

How come y'all think he is the Fred Astaire of "hoof in mouth disease"?

That's the funniest thing ever - and so true! :P

I don't believe there's 46 million ppl in America that need USDA Food Stamps......NO WAY at all....

There must be corruption by the simple fact of the doubling of Food Stamp handouts in just 4 years, including any of the illegals receiving them too, since the current regime took over.

Oh, man! Deja vu! NOT in a good way either...

A long time ago my wifey, now EX - wifey, with English as a second language, (a Peruvian) cooked me a dinner that tasted not too good, after the first bite, and I looked at her and went, "Ewww, Yuk!!"..

And she said screamed INSTANTLY:

"Yuk YOU, N****r!!!"


:eek:

Given that the park service has such signs in it's parks, it might be interesting to ask what their "stated" reason for them is. I think it's along the lines of trying to keep animals wild and away from people. For both animals and human safety. But part of that is the implicit realization that when animals become used to humans for food they become dependent on them.

- Peter.

WRT the bolded portion above, this is not true. The no-feeding policy is done so that animals don’t approach people. That’s where the problem begins.

A lot of .gov organizations and Native American tribes feed wildlife regularly, especially in the winter months. That is one way to maintain herd size and health, But this maintenance is not done by offering pop corn to a black bear or other wild animals who are near the parking lot. The result of that is that the animals will begin to approach people and then the arm chewing starts….

Once park officials learn that, for example, a bear approaches visitors, the bear is usually killed, else, it will harm visitors. IIRC some who were injured brought suit to the NPS and some have won.... That is why there is sinage.

Here's the state by state data:

SNAP Current Participation - Persons

TX, CA, FL, NY at the top.

The participation in the SNAP program is likely a much better indicator of where the national economy stands rather than unemployment numbers or job creation numbers, since it tends to indicate how many are living at the level of assistance qualification. The take away is that the growth in jobs is likely at the bottom of the pay scales.

Don't both reasons apply, though in different degrees? I once was looking to get a bird feeder. The guy at the store said I shouldn't get it unless I intended to keep up with it. He said birds will become to prefer it as a source of food, which only works if I keep it full. I'm sure that the primary reason for rules against feeding animals is to keep them wild, for the reasons you state, but I suspect that another reason might be to avoid dependency. To apply that concept to humans is a bit obscene.

Plenty of people sell food stamps at less than fifty cents on the dollar for cash. I also was told by a co-worker that he was in line at the grocery store and the person in front of him had some food for his pet and would not be allowed to use the card for that, so they ran to the meat case and added some ground beef to his check out, and stated dog will eat good tonight. Not a big deal but that is how.

Are you nominating Ron Cob for 2016 presidential race? That is a slogan closer to the truth than hope for change. Or was it hope and change.

The stats don't indicate that it's a huge problem . . . 1%? Unless you're aware of other stats.

Somehow that does not sound like "extremely corrupt".

:rolleyes:
So, less corrupt is better corrupt to you?

Corrupt, is corrupt.:P

It's an "entitlement program" so it mus be.

By contrast, the IGO reported that for FY 2012, the VA had an improper payment rate in excess of 10%; no clear figures on fraudulent claims.

Having lived in a wilderness area for well over 10 years I only know from my own experiences where I have not seen any sense of dependency upon wildlife that is fed occasionally or regularly.

I agree that most creatures will opt for the easy meal but that doesn’t imply or suggest they don’t know how to feed themselves otherwise. A real dependence requires that the animals know of no other way of feeding themselves and they depend on the hand out.

As an example, some near me feed a deer population regularly, but not only does this not stop the deer from feeding on their traditional sources of food, but during late spring through autumn, they usually won’t touch the offered food (alfalfa or hay) that is placed in a location known to the deer, as deer prefer fresh grasses and related food instead.

I know of several who use bird feeders seasonally, because most birds here go to different locations when the conditions change. We have pretty severe winters with lots of snow. Anywho, the birds aren’t dependent but do go for the easy meal.

In contrast, an animal that is raised in a home or lab, who knows of no other source for food is dependent, and represents a different set of circumstances than described here.

Due to this, I think the alleged NPS statement is BS intended for little but to protect the NPS from litigation, and people from being chewed.

I agree that applying the comment made by the OP to humans is a stretch designed to offend.

Such a statement has not been proven to have been issued by the Park Service.
On the other hand, my experience with wildlife, which is lifelong, is different from yours. Feeding wildlife interferes with natural population fluctuations as it allows for a higher survival rate among newborns. Mother raccoons that are being fed by "helpful" humans on a regular basis will bring their newly weaned young and to the food and teach them that that is where the food is. While survival rates increase, foraging skills decrease. This is only one example. All one has to do is look at the difference between feral barn cats and domestic house cats. Domestic house cats may hunt for sport, but put one into the situation of having to hunt to feed itself and it won't survive. It's country cousins on the other hand do quite well without human intervention.

I have neighbors who have a place here and a place on the edge of the Phoenix Mountain Preserve down in the valley. She feeds Javelina. Buys flour tortillas at Costco by the gross. The mother pigs bring their babies as soon as they stop nursing to her porch for their food. Over the years "her" herd grew to scary numbers. The state Game and Fish dept. was called by a neighbor who'd had enough and they showed up in force and in no uncertain terms told her she was interfering with the natural course of the Javelinas' life cycle and population. They trapped and moved the herd and issued her a written warning, threatening that if the activity continued she would be fined and forced to pay for the relocation costs.
Feeding birds can be done in such a way that it doesn't interfere with seasonal migratory patterns. Our area is full of hummingbirds in summer. They naturally migrate south in winter as it can get quite cold here and nothing grows in winter that they can eat. This is how it is supposed to be. It's possible to get them to stay around all winter by keeping feeders out. I take mine down after the first hard freeze. Leaving them up is selfish and harmful to the natural pattern of existence for these birds. Does the person who feeds birds all winter that should have flown south congratulate himself on "saving them a trip"?
Feeding wildlife is stupid.

Isn't that becoming dependent?

- Peter.

So is the military and their procurement process. I don't see the right clamoring about that.

Actually, we're still waiting for the background facts and figures about how corrupt the current system apparently is. I've done all I can.

Broken tail light or broken engine? Both broken right?

I would say so.

I will say I've been feeding the brem in the lake since 2009 and it seems more show up every year at the same time/same place to eat free:). I do pull some out on occasion and the lovely Ms engatwork fries em up so it kinda keeps em in check.

Yogi bear was a thief. Whatsitallmeeean?

1% sounds small. Almost insignificant.

If we think of it in terms of parasite impact on an animal, it's not much, most of us can carry that many parasites without much problem. However, if there are other parasites and if the parasites target systems or organs, then it can be a life-threatening problem. 1% in the gut is insignificant. 1% in the eye or brain? That's a dangerous parasite.

Getting back to food stamps, maybe they are 1% of the intestinal flora. Perhaps there is also waste and fraud in the DoD and spook agencies? Perhaps in Obamacare or Medicare? Social Security?

At the present time parasites are taking more from the taxpayers than the taxpayers can support. Want to add more to the taxpayer? Who pays?

Just trying to determine the source of the statement and perhaps gain some insight into the perception that the SNAP program is extremely corrupt. It must come from somewhere for such a statement to be made with such confidence.

Probably comes from within -- it matches some preconception and therefore, reinforces what we believe to be true. It happens all the time in politics.

I get what you'er saying and I'm not generally a welfare basher but it is true that many farmers in our land would be in serious pain without illegal immigrants harvesting their crop. Meanwhile, able bodied people/citizens get their dole every month.

The Latino migrant knows he has no safety net and thus works his behind off to stay afloat.

Agreed.

Moving on…

While I agree that parent critters teach their children, are these raccoons in a national park or in your neighborhood? Can you provide proof that raccoons only eat from handouts and never anything else? While on the topic, can you provide any proof that raccoons in suburbia don’t have hunting skills?

Any proof that "foraging skills decrease"? Also, as a reminder, the topic is about animals at national parks. I pointed out that an animal raised at a home or lab would probably never establish hunting skills. That said, can you provide proof that a wild animal that is fed occasionally would lose the hunting skills?

An interesting story, but again, this does not sound like a national park, it sounds like a housing development, a.k.a suburbia.

Also, what is interesting to me here is that different animals will adapt in different ways. In any event, and I hope this doesn’t come across as my being obstinate, as that’s not my intent, but your example does not make a case for an animal losing its hunting skills, but rather using them to take advantage of the circumstances.

Really, they act as enforcer, judge and jury in your state? When I asked the local game warden about neighbors feeding wildlife, he said “So?” The local game wardens don’t have a problem in this area, unless it occurs in a National Park. I understand laws differ in different areas. I also acknowledge the point that when people feed wildlife regularly (“regularly” being the key criteria), animals will take advantage. However, again, this doesn’t prove anything about animals losing hunting skills as a result of being fed by visitors, which appears your central point.

I read that the overwhelming majority of humming birds do not live 1 year. According to the articles, if they do live more than a year they may live up to 6 years.

I’d like to see an example where feeding some humming birds significantly alters the population of humming birds, or can alter their typical migration patterns. It may be the case. I don’t know.

I can’t answer our question about someone congratulating themself. I suggest you ask someone who does this. But the bigger point: Is man not part of the natural pattern of existence on this planet? If your answer is yes, then anything man does is also part of the natural pattern. If no, then can you explain how man is not part of nature?

If we can return to the topic of feeding animals in a national park, the interesting thing here, and I have to admit I hadn’t thought of it as around here, the national parks are closed to the public due to snow about 5-6 months out of the year. Any opportunistic habits the critters may acquire during the warm season, is quickly lost.

If your postulate about animals losing their hunting skills were true, then the populations of animals in the national parks nearby would diminish. I haven’t come across any evidence to support this. Can you find any evidence? I looked but did not find anything suggestive either way.

Anyway, in parks where the conditions don’t close the parks for part of the year, I could see where consistent feeding would bring more animals in closer contact with more people. I already wrote that leads to people getting injured and the injuries are why the NPS doesn’t want to get sued again and again. I have seen no evidence that feeding wildlife occasionally causes them to lose hunting skills. That appears the key question in this debate.

I've been feeling guilty about our 4 barn cats, all of whom live outside. The cats are thriving, but I understand that they might not be helping the local bird population. I just can't bring myself to not let them stay outside. The good news is that our barn has 4 or 5 barn swallow nests that turn out several batches of chicks each year. The adult swallows get aggressive when any of the cats walk below a nest.