Arctic Convoy's of WW2.

[Hatterasguy]

PQ17 An Arctic Convoy Disaster BBC 2014 Presented by Jeremy Clarkson Full video - YouTube

Great story about a very little talked about part of the war. The merchant sailors were stuck fighting on slow barges without anyway of shooting back. Throw in freezing water and sinking meant certain death.

As the British sailor at the end said, "It was our duty and we didn't shirk from it."

[barry12345]

I also follow this period in time with some interest. For a long time I wondered just how the Germans. A cultured people degenerated into their assorted terrible by any civilized measure of behaviours in that period.

Now I have a book that hopefully really gets into the causes and rationals from their perspectives of these behaviours. The book is called Hitlers empire. Basically how the germans ruled Europe.

I suspect the majority of North Americans do not know that there had been problems of long standing in this area of Europe that perhaps pre conditioned Germans. Well before the first world war. So an outsider like myself may not understand.

They not only wanted additional territory but wanted to be the only occupants of it as well. Based on this alone it seems they never really could have prevailed long term. It does explain a little of the reason for the constant excesses that occurred in acquired territories.. This reasoning of theirs by no stretch makes what they engaged in right.

It does surprise me that their intellectuals did not tell the leadership how flawed the programs they had going where. For all I know maybe they did and were ignored as well. Or perhaps it was too dangerous to so.

I have just started the book and hope it can answer for me some of the questions about the obvious excesses that they engaged in. I never heard a sound reason as to why and was always curious. Especially when it was indicated a possible majority of germans went right along with it.

Again I hope the book will clarify some of it. It is hard it reading so far. You can color it anyway you want but a substantial number of germans became little better than pure animals. Even regular force troops killed massive amounts of civilians including children on purpose.

[KarTek]

That is an amazing, tragic story.

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by barry12345

Again I hope the book will clarify some of it. It is hard it reading so far. You can color it anyway you want but a substantial number of germans became little better than pure animals. Even regular force troops killed massive amounts of civilians including children on purpose.

If you read enough of the preceding history of Europe, and the contemporary and indeed following you realize that there is actually nothing surprising about it, despite the protestations to the contrary. And it's not unique to Europe either. It's simply the human condition.

- Peter.

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

PQ17 An Arctic Convoy Disaster BBC 2014 Presented by Jeremy Clarkson Full video - YouTube

Great story about a very little talked about part of the war. The merchant sailors were stuck fighting on slow barges without anyway of shooting back. Throw in freezing water and sinking meant certain death.

As the British sailor at the end said, "It was our duty and we didn't shirk from it."

My father served on board HMS Redoubt, an R class destroyer during WWII, though not in the Arctic. I remember his stories about her well. In particular I remember his comment about how invulnerable he felt on the ship. It was a warship with its own guns to fire back with if attacked. He said it was the best place to be in a war. However I have visited HMS Cavalier at the dockyard at Chatham in England. She was one of the destroyers who took part in the Arctic convoys. Seems like an impressive warship until you actually get aboard and then you realize just how small it is and how vulnerable you would be on one in a serious battle.

No doubt the feeling of security has much to do with the young age of the crews and the comradeship of a well trained crew in wartime, but really looking at one of these ships on it's own stripped of the context it really does provide a different perspective.

The merchant crews were of course in a far worse position than the navy crews. I would truly have hated to have been on one of those vessels.

- Peter.

[Idle]

The British did arm up a few merchant ships. They called them "Q ships" and they left it to the Germans to figure out which merchant ships were Qs and which were not.

[Hatterasguy]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

My father served on board HMS Redoubt, an R class destroyer during WWII, though not in the Arctic. I remember his stories about her well. In particular I remember his comment about how invulnerable he felt on the ship. It was a warship with its own guns to fire back with if attacked. He said it was the best place to be in a war. However I have visited HMS Cavalier at the dockyard at Chatham in England. She was one of the destroyers who took part in the Arctic convoys. Seems like an impressive warship until you actually get aboard and then you realize just how small it is and how vulnerable you would be on one in a serious battle.

No doubt the feeling of security has much to do with the young age of the crews and the comradeship of a well trained crew in wartime, but really looking at one of these ships on it's own stripped of the context it really does provide a different perspective.

The merchant crews were of course in a far worse position than the navy crews. I would truly have hated to have been on one of those vessels.

- Peter.

I have been on a destroyer and I can see where they got the nickname "tin can Navy".

Compared to the South Dakota class or the Iowa class they seem awfully thinly armed, and small.



In Iceland I'd want to be on something harder to sink. I don't think the Germans had anything in the north that could really put to much of a dent into a battle wagon. They certainly could absorb torpedo hits better than a merchant ship.

[dynalow]

Interesting story. Thanks for posting.

The US Navy armed the Merchant vessels in WW2 and the US flagged ships in PQ17 had Navy Armed guards aboard.

I have a sense that during the war, there were differences of opinion between Merchantmen and the sailors who protected them. I sensed a little of this in the video when the Americans reached the Russian Island and were ready to call it a day & go home.

History of Naval Armed Guard service during World War II


.............The British depended largely on merchant seamen to man the guns on merchantmen, in view of their comparatively large crews, whereas the United States supplied Navy personnel to man all key positions, with assistance from the merchant crew in passing ammunition, loading, and manning other less important stations. The difference arose in part from the diverse nature of the maritime service in the two countries. In Britain, all merchant sailors were registered under the Universal Conscription Act of August, 1940, placed in seaman pools, and paid both afloat and ashore. They were completely under the control of the Ministry of Shipping and could be required to take gunnery training while in the pool awaiting further assignment. When assigned a gunnery station, British seamen received a shilling a day extra. The Master was in charge of the defense of the ship. But on United States ships the defense of the ship was a responsibility of the Armed Guard officer and his Navy gunners. The Armed Guard officer had the status of a commanding officer in the United States Navy. The United States was unable to assign prime responsibility for manning guns to merchant seamen, for there was no control over them from the time they completed a voyage until the agreed to sign on for another voyage, and, therefore, no means of forcing them to take the required gunnery training. Every facility was offered the merchant seaman while ashore to become proficient in gunnery, but the only training of any importance took place under the direction of the Armed Guard officers while at sea. There was a definite tendency on the part of merchant seamen to stay away from Armed Guard Gunnery Schools in the United States......


Naval Armed Guard: Russian Convoys
........Convoy PQ-17, June - July 1942

The ferocity of German warfare reached a new high in the tragic destruction of [convoy number] PQ 17. In no other convoy to North Russia were American losses so high. We lost more than three fourths of all our merchant ships in this convoy and our losses on this voyage alone were more than one fourth of our total losses in all voyages to North Russia. The reason for these losses is to be found in the fact that merchant ships dispersed on July 4 and were left to shift for themselves. The escorts went west to meet heavy units of the German navy which were reported to be steaming toward the convoy..............
*****

Years ago, I sailed with an old timer Merchant Marine Chief Engineer. He sailed in WW2 coastwise on tankers. He said he always carried a pistol on watch with him to keep the engine room gang from deserting if they came under U-boat attack during the "Happy Time" they enjoyed off the East Coast in '42-'43. Sometimes the black gang would be locked in to keep them from running.
Old Chief B. T. Lee. What a character. Had a big German Shepard named Brutus. RIP chief.

[barry12345]

Five houses away lived a tanker captain now deceased. He ran a tanker up and down the eastern seaboard of the US during the worse period as well. He probably was very lucky to survive that time.

He related his experiences to me many years ago. It is old history now but no valid reason other than the smearing of one naval officer in charge of the area right or wrong has emerged. The officer is credited basically with making no effort to stop the carnage.

As for leaving all the lights on shore blazing away during this period had to make it twice as dangerous. Where the politicians afraid to let the public know the war was going on just offshore at the time? Life at higher levels mind the ships and cargos must have been considered cheap.

[dynalow]

Originally Posted by barry12345

Five houses away lived a tanker captain now deceased. He ran a tanker up and down the eastern seaboard of the US during the worse period as well. He probably was very lucky to survive that time.

He related his experiences to me many years ago. It is old history now but no valid reason other than the smearing of one naval officer in charge of the area right or wrong has emerged. The officer is credited basically with making no effort to stop the carnage.

As for leaving all the lights on shore blazing away during this period had to make it twice as dangerous. Where the politicians afraid to let the public know the war was going on just offshore at the time? Life at higher levels mind the ships and cargos must have been considered cheap.

In early 1942, the U-boats had a field day. Before Dec.7, 1941, the Navy had begun efforts in North Carolina to establish bases to protect US shipping lanes.


...........Although incomplete, the Morehead base was formally commissioned on 17 Mar. 1942, with the German U-boat offensive along the North Carolina coast well under way. It quickly became the most important reception and processing center on the North Carolina coast for the survivors of sunken or damaged merchant ships. Over the course of the war, both U.S. Navy and Coast Guard personnel used the base, whose primary duty was to serve the vessels patrolling the coast for German U-boats. Navy patrol craft, Coast Guard cutters, and other boats operated from the base in conjunction with larger vessels at the State Port in Morehead City and the Fort Macon Coast Guard Station on Bogue Banks. They aided in minesweeping and in maintaining a submarine net across the entrance to the ship channel in Beaufort Inlet. The base was also available to supply ammunition, make small-scale repairs, and provide refitting.............

The U.S. Naval Section Base at Ocracoke began operations in May-June 1942 with construction of the Hatteras Minefield, a ring of contact mines laid in an irregular arc offshore from Cape Hatteras to Ocracoke enclosing a protected anchorage for merchant ships. The base itself consisted of a large, two-story administrative building and barracks, a hospital, and various support facilities. Three large piers were built into Silver Lake, which was dredged to shelter Coast Guard and navy patrol craft. By the time the base was formally commissioned on 9 Oct. 1942, its original purpose had ceased to exist, as the Hatteras Minefield proved too difficult to maintain. When five friendly ships were sunk or damaged after entering the minefield by mistake, it was discontinued..........

Naval Section Bases | NCpedia

Coastal patrol vessels and Navy ships were in short supply for coastal duty and convoy systems had not yet been introduced.

Dad led a group of 83' Patrol boats from New Jersey to Ocracoke in March '42. He was briefly in Moorehead City, then in May was ordered to "take command of and immediately establish Hatteras Minefield Patrol. CGCs 462,463,481,484,486 make up the force"
I guess you could describe the situation as "Hurry up & play catch up." He was ordered right back to Boston in June to return to Greenland as CO of a wooden hull 110' Subchaser.

There is a book called Torpedo Junction by Homer Hickam which tells about the problems the Navy had at the start of the war. No ships. No material. No manpower. The fog of war.

Keeping the lights on up and down the coast was criminal. Excellent backdrop for night hunting.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

PQ17 An Arctic Convoy Disaster BBC 2014 Presented by Jeremy Clarkson Full video - YouTube

Great story about a very little talked about part of the war. The merchant sailors were stuck fighting on slow barges without anyway of shooting back. Throw in freezing water and sinking meant certain death.

As the British sailor at the end said, "It was our duty and we didn't shirk from it."

I had a neighbor when I was a boy in Atlanta who was a merchant sailor during WWII and made several convoy voyages to the USSR. His stories were fearsome.

[barry12345]

For some bizzare reason the merchant marine sailors were not recognized for a long time officially for what they did and the risks they took.

[Stoney]

My wife's Uncle Al was a Merchant Officer (equivalent to Lt.JG) on the Murmansk run and did 2 convoys from St.John's Newfoundland to Murmansk.

The second time they got hit off the North Cape (deck gun of a U Boat) and limped into port with a 20 deg list. The Russians patched the Liberty ship up and they made it home but he said he never forgot the cold and the knowledge that there was no hope of survival in a lifeboat.

He went right from King's Point Merchant Academy to sea with almost no real time blue water experience (unless you count the Long island Sound out to Block Island and back).

In the US the Merchies got higher pay than the Navy crew doing the same jobs, but other than a crappy WWI French 75mm gun welded to the deck, they had no way to defend themselves.

[Diesel911]

I don't know about the merchant seaman.
But, I met a Man who served in the North Atlantic.

Part of his Job was when a Ship was hit and the Men abandoned Ship was to get his Boat out there and pick up the Officers and NCOs ASAP first before Hypothermia killed them. The Enlisted Me where picked up later if still alive.

That meant that he had to pass up Enlisted Men pleading for help that were close by and pick up the Officers and NCOs even if they were further away.

Having to abandon People to die like that caused Him get drunk when ever possible; even on the Ship and the Ship Commander did not interfere because He know why He was drinking like that.

I am not sure where Merchant Seaman ranked in the above story as He did not mention that.

[dynalow]

In addition to ice and cold, White Nights occur up there at that time of year. No cover of darkness to offer protection from air attacks.