Originally Posted by suginami (Post 3364538)

That is exactly in line with my experience.

Originally Posted by Medmech (Post 3363786)

Thanks for posting B, being the parent of an aspiring Ivy leaguer I understand what the author is saying but the quote below does apply to my daughter. Of course she could easily go through the state university system and she can have a free ride at MSU and UofM, she is driven to go Ivy League she accepts nothing less than A's and runs a rigorous diversified after school schedule. Saying that the ROI for Ivy League education is hard for me to stomach because statistically Ivy League, MIT and Service Academy graduates blow standard university graduates away on almost every metric. I may be just an average educated former ground pounder but if my child is so driven that she wants to go Ivy League I'm not going to tell her otherwise.

So extreme are the admission standards now that kids who manage to get into elite colleges have, by definition, never experienced anything but success. The prospect of not being successful terrifies them, disorients them. The cost of falling short, even temporarily, becomes not merely practical, but existential. The result is a violent aversion to risk. You have no margin for error, so you avoid the possibility that you will ever make an error. Once, a student at Pomona told me that she’d love to have a chance to think about the things she’s studying, only she doesn’t have the time. I asked her if she had ever considered not trying to get an A in every class. She looked at me as if I had made an indecent suggestion.

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 3364568)

I am reading the article and this quote: "as Ezra Klein has put it, “is that colleges are producing a large number of very smart, completely confused graduates. Kids who have ample mental horsepower, an incredible work ethic and no idea what to do next.”

This sounds like the ideal type for entry into the business world where you are expected to adapt the particular corporate culture of the Corporation that hires you.

Originally Posted by elchivito (Post 3364573)

I know some of those kids. They're largely miserable. I've seen them melt down when failure ultimately finds them. No plan B. Not pretty.

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3363777)

It is always much easier to talk about being egalitarian when your belly is full, you are sleeping in a warm and comfortable house in the middle of winter and you have good income. Am I a smarter person if I am a Harvard or Yale grad than a barely accredited school? IDK. The question is, if you are an Ivy League grad and I'm a grad of some backwater school that is accredited but nobody heard of, all things about equal, who will make the best impression when they are looking at candidates. After the good life is had, you can talk all day long about the philosophy but try not to tell that to a hungry and cold person who is living from paycheck to paycheck. He probably won't care.

Is college even the right avenue? IDK. Depends on what you are trying to do. If money is no object, WGAS. If you are like most and have a budget, consideration of whether a college education will have an ROI or not is kinda important. If I am fabulously wealthy, I could do a PhD in flying saucers hidden at Area 51, spend $300K and probably couldn't get a job that I would ever be able to justify the degree with financially. Back on earth, we need to see if we can make a college degree a financial investment or not.

Originally Posted by Benzasaurus (Post 3364499)

I think the article gets a lot of things right except for the class warfare; that's on more than just the Ivys.

And there is a hella ton of financial aid for needs based cases at various Ivys. Here's an example: Yale "Factsheet" | Office of Institutional Research. They'll give 65k a year if you qualify. A big portion of that will probably just be for tuition though, at their valuation. ;)

Students are definitely trained to be timid, but that also results from any upbringing that prioritizes earning capacity above fulfillment. Lots of them are not the scared little animals the article makes out, those are the worst off. I think for lots of them the rat race starts at college and so does their rejection of it. They do see it for what it is but they just don't see any other way forward through life. They have no alternative role models because our society on the whole privileges earning capacity over fulfillment.

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3364574)

However big or small the company, you are going to have to adapt to the company that hires you or employment will be terminated. I don't need or want an employee to start out with "Well, in my previous company, they did it this way." or "I have an idea how to best do this.". I get that and I hand them a copy of the classifieds and a copy of mapquest to the unemployment office.

I don't need or want your ideas. You just walked in the door. You do it my way or it's the highway. Now after you put in your time and know the job, lets talk about how to improve the process. I have a process in play. I don't want to have to bail you out of a mess with a process I have never used. When you are in trouble, if you follow the process I laid out, it is easier for me to recover the mistake. Like I said, when you are more familiar, your opinion is now carrying weight.

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3364576)

Then they learn to plan better and overcome this mess or they can buy a rope from the hardware store. IF it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger. If it does, no loss.

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 3364581)

When you graduate form the Ivy League Schools and do well the Jobs come looking for You if you Education was about something the Business or Science can use.

Also Parents of Wealthy Kids want their Children to know enough to not only hang on to the Wealth that they have but able to increase that Wealth.

And, in fact Wealth can easily be lost.

If I believe what the Article is saying Business is evidently hiring a bunch of highly trained and motivated Ivy League Drones.

The article frequently mentions how the Students seem to be confused about why and what they are doing. What the Article does not mention is that the Students may be confused but despite that they are still making the grade in College. Meaning that despite the supposed confusion they are still able to successfully push themselves to make the Grade. That is a skill all by itself.

When you hire one of those Graduates you know what you are getting more then you do with someone from an unknown College. You are getting someone driven and trained to succeed even if they don't have a clear reason why. You are also getting someone from an upper class culture.

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 3364614)

Concerning the part in red. It seems ridiculous to want hire someone who has experience in a similar occupation and then not use any of that experience to help your Business.
If you don't want someone with experience hire the raw untrained material and start from scratch with them.

Part of the above is pretty much what I was saying. The Ivy Leaguers are being mostly trained to meet a specific need of Business (but at a higher entry level) so I think that you cannot expect more from them then that.

Originally Posted by Diesel911 (Post 3364616)

Don't be fooled by simplistic sayings that have a modicum of truth to them; if something does not kill you it might well leave you crippled in some way for the rest of your now miserable Life.

The crippling can be physical or mental or some nasty combination of both.

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3364574)

However big or small the company, you are going to have to adapt to the company that hires you or employment will be terminated. I don't need or want an employee to start out with "Well, in my previous company, they did it this way." or "I have an idea how to best do this.". I get that and I hand them a copy of the classifieds and a copy of mapquest to the unemployment office.



I don't need or want your ideas. You just walked in the door. You do it my way or it's the highway. Now after you put in your time and know the job, lets talk about how to improve the process. I have a process in play. I don't want to have to bail you out of a mess with a process I have never used. When you are in trouble, if you follow the process I laid out, it is easier for me to recover the mistake. Like I said, when you are more familiar, your opinion is now carrying weight.

Originally Posted by tbomachines (Post 3364681)

Bull****. The first few months of employment are often the most valuable to employers because of fresh, different ideas free of the day to day "in the weeds" stuff. If you hire someone who doesn't give a different perspective on your business you aren't doing things right. Doesn't mean your hire is inexperienced at all, or won't have a transition period, but if you are of the "my way or the highway" mindset you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3364691)

Until they know our business model, how would they make recommendations on how to do their job? Until I have trained you in whatever you need to know, how do you know what to do? I have worked with training first, some hands on before we entertain them making changes. Those that started out wanting to change the job before they know the job have done nothing but make life difficult for themselves and me in the process. My problem has been people who show up on day one with a plan on how best to do the job. Would YOU accept that? I start by studying the system, my job procedures then ask my questions about my new ideas for the job. We can discuss your ideas when you know more as a group. I don't want you upsetting the group to test out new theories till I am comfortable with you knowing your job.