Has anyone gone solar?

[davidmash]

About once a year I let some solar company try and sell me on it. So far, done have been able to make it financially reasonable to pull the trigger. Today I talked with a rep from a company called Vivint. The pricing seems to make sense. There is no out of pocket. It's a 25 yr note on a $65k system with a 25 yr warranty. Any issues and they fix it. With the federal rebate of $17k, the note comes down to about $47k @ 1.98% interest so about $220 a month. Right now at $.13kWh which is the best rate I can find that is about my avg electric bill. I avg about 21,000kWh a yr.

If electric rates drop then I will be paying more for solar than if I shop around for electric. If they rates go up, I'm going to be saving money. My gut says the rates have to come down because too many people are being stretched to the limit or beyond with the increase in costs of fuel.

So anyone have solar and whats your experience ...reliability? Are you getting as much power as promised? This company is promising 100% offset. They have not done the site inspection yet and I have my doubts about that 100% with all the shade we have. Any regrets if you have solar?

[t walgamuth]

My house is perfect for a solar install on the roof. at 32 years it will need a roof one of these days. I have always thought about putting on a solar panel system which would also act as a roof.

[Mxfrank]

So I've also given this a lot of thought. A few gotchas to consider:


1) Do you need to remove any trees? I live in a forest, so this is a big problem for me.


2) What happens to your note if you decide to sell the house?



3) Will the system work in a blackout? Oddly, many installations won't work off-grid.


4) Is your payback tied to selling excess power back to the utility? This may turn into a problem, as the rate paid by the utility may end up being different from the rate it charges. Net metering will become more controversial as more solar homes join the grid.



5) Will you have a battery to carry you through the night? The battery won't last 25 years.


6) How will you access the roof? I need to walk the roof a couple of times a year to clear leaves from the gutters and wash the skylights.



7) What is the expected maintenance cost? I have doubts about a 25 year warranty offered by a two year old company.

[davidmash]

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

So I've also given this a lot of thought. A few gotchas to consider:


1) Do you need to remove any trees? I live in a forest, so this is a big problem for me.


2) What happens to your note if you decide to sell the house?



3) Will the system work in a blackout? Oddly, many installations won't work off-grid.


4) Is your payback tied to selling excess power back to the utility? This may turn into a problem, as the rate paid by the utility may end up being different from the rate it charges. Net metering will become more controversial as more solar homes join the grid.



5) Will you have a battery to carry you through the night? The battery won't last 25 years.


6) How will you access the roof? I need to walk the roof a couple of times a year to clear leaves from the gutters and wash the skylights.



7) What is the expected maintenance cost? I have doubts about a 25 year warranty offered by a two year old company.

1. No. At least not yet. They have to do a site survey to confirm but they are saying the offset can be guaranteed as is.

2. The note is fully transferable.

3. No it will not. There is no battery back up (purchased separately) but I have a 18kW generator in case of power failures.

4. Not sure I understand the question. They are quoting a system that will produce about 22kW over the year. I use about 21kW. So I should about break even. An shortage will be covered by the company (I do need to figure out at what rate).

5. See #3

6. Never been on the roof in 12 yrs. Single story house so gutter access is from a ladder, not the roof.

[martureo]

I got a few quotes recently and was really wanting to do it, but it won't work out for me right now.

The first thing you need to know is that the Federal Tax Credit for Solar panels ISN'T a rebate, its a credit. Right now its 26% and will go down to 22% January 1st. That sound great, but see if it applies to you.

The credit is for income tax. Say the cost of the system is $50k, the tax credit is $13k. If you have a tax liability of $10k and because of other deductions you'll have an overpayment of $7k and receive a refund of that amount. The credit will allow you to receive the rest of your tax liability refunded to you ($10k-$7k = $3k) that year. But the remaining $10k of the credit will be unused (you won't see it that year).

The credit that you apply for can be applied to your income tax (what you've paid), but cannot be applied to an amount greater than what you've paid. It can be reserved and applied for the next 20 years.

There's also a calculation page for Federal tax credits that needs to be filled out each year which will let you know what you've already applied for and what can be applied that year. This needs to be done every year if you have any leftover credits.


The company I was most impressed with is local to the DC Metro area, but they did a LIDAR scan of my property, modeled in the roof and trees and gave me a full report the amount of sunlight my roof would get. I got an estimation of what the panels and system would produce compared to my electric bill from the previous year.

The system I was looking at would be $62,000, but as I have four kids and a mortgage, I just don't make enough to have paid income tax of $15,000 each year with withholding on my W4.

This loan company expects that you will receive the tax credit back from the IRS within 18 months of the system being installed, its like a delayed down payment. Which works out great if you get the full amount of the credit in the first year, but I wouldn't. The loan would then be reamortized and the monthly payment would be greater than I would be paying for my regular power bill ($220 rather than $150).

I'd be glad to send you the report I got if that helps. I just can't afford it right now as I can't get the Federal tax credit in the amount needed to make it worth it.

[mytimeyet]

There are solar forums that you can look over and see some 'real world' opinions/reports about how folks have faired with 'going solar'. From what I have read the general consensus is the best deal is a smaller net metering system that will offset your use a bit and sometimes push into the grid.
https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum

[Mxfrank]

Originally Posted by davidmash

4. Not sure I understand the question. They are quoting a system that will produce about 22kW over the year. I use about 21kW. So I should about break even. An shortage will be covered by the company (I do need to figure out at what rate).
.

Your system will produce about as much electricity as you consume. But I would bet that a lot of your power usage happens at night. This means that you will be producing more power during the day than you are using. Two ways to deal with this. One is to install a battery system to balance demand. The other is to "sell" excess production back to the power company, and buy an equivalent amount later. This is called net metering. You are effectively selling power to the power company at full retail price.

This is the way many solar installations work, but it relies on the power company being willing to pay a high price for your excess. Once this really gets going, you can expect the power companies to push back on that. They'll want to buy your power at wholesale prices, and that means you'd be selling low and buying high. This battle will be fought in the next decade, but it's coming.

[speednjay]

When I bought my house about 5 years ago I wanted to solar things up. Had every solar sales rep at my house. I wanted 2 things : to outright own the panels and equipment and I wanted more solar that what I was currently using. I wanted to add a hot tub.. electric car charger, and run the ac full blast in the summer. I didn’t want to lease panels. All of them flat out refused. They said that it was illegal to go more than 60 percent of what my current electric usage was. I been thinking I’m gonna off grid solar some of my house like lights, some electrical outlets. I dunno

[davidmash]

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Your system will produce about as much electricity as you consume. But I would bet that a lot of your power usage happens at night. This means that you will be producing more power during the day than you are using. Two ways to deal with this. One is to install a battery system to balance demand. The other is to "sell" excess production back to the power company, and buy an equivalent amount later. This is called net metering. You are effectively selling power to the power company at full retail price.

This is the way many solar installations work, but it relies on the power company being willing to pay a high price for your excess. Once this really gets going, you can expect the power companies to push back on that. They'll want to buy your power at wholesale prices, and that means you'd be selling low and buying high. This battle will be fought in the next decade, but it's coming.

As for power usage, most is during the day. Pool run during the day. The AC runs mostly during the day due to the heat. The system is a net metering system so my assumption is that it will produce more than I need during the day and sell it to the electric company.

I guess I need to find out how that is calculated. Do they do it based on kWh or $$ and if it has a dollar value, what that value is.

[davidmash]

I am trying to figure out the tax credit thing. The system is about $64k so the rebate is about $17k. According to this site it sounds like I can apply the entire about to the loan to reduces the payment. I am trying to figure out if I can apply the entire 26% against the loan with out having it limited based on income tax. I know if I jut take the tax credit to limit my tax liability it will be based on my income and tax rate. Not sure if the same applies to taking it and putting it toward the loan.

[Mxfrank]

Originally Posted by davidmash

I guess I need to find out how that is calculated. Do they do it based on kWh or $$ and if it has a dollar value, what that value is.

Net metering is what it sounds like. If you consume 10 kwh, but produce 5 kwhr, then the net is that you consumed 5. From your viewpoint, the meter "spins backwards" when the solar panels are producing. From the power company's perspective, they are both buying and selling at full retail price, which becomes a profitless business as more and more homes go solar. In the future, the power companies will want to pay less for the power you are putting into the system, so that they can make a profit. It's possible that instead of "netting", there will be inbound and outbound metering, at different rates. The treatment of cogeneration revenue is subject to state regulation, and can change at any time.

[ah-kay]

$64k solar system? run.

You will never recoup your money at $64k. CA average system is 20k. Net cost is about 15 to 16k after tax credit. You can recoup your investment in 7 to 8 years. The average kw used per household is about 30kw per day so you don't need a big system. Also netmeeting is a gimmick, subject to change at their wimp. Most utilities companies need you to pay a solar connection charge. So this is a recurring costs no matter what. I installed a hybrid system with batteries and it produces what I consume, nothing more.

[davidmash]

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Net metering is what it sounds like. If you consume 10 kwh, but produce 5 kwhr, then the net is that you consumed 5. From your viewpoint, the meter "spins backwards" when the solar panels are producing. From the power company's perspective, they are both buying and selling at full retail price, which becomes a profitless business as more and more homes go solar. In the future, the power companies will want to pay less for the power you are putting into the system, so that they can make a profit. It's possible that instead of "netting", there will be inbound and outbound metering, at different rates. The treatment of cogeneration revenue is subject to state regulation, and can change at any time.

But how do they calculate it...I generate 20 and need 10....do I get credit for 10 or do I get credit for $.13 per kWh and then have to buy it at a higher rate when I need it?

[davidmash]

Originally Posted by ah-kay

$64k solar system? run.

You will never recoup your money at $64k. CA average system is 20k. Net cost is about 15 to 16k after tax credit. You can recoup your investment in 7 to 8 years. The average kw used per household is about 30kw per day so you don't need a big system. Also netmeeting is a gimmick, subject to change at their wimp. Most utilities companies need you to pay a solar connection charge. So this is a recurring costs no matter what. I installed a hybrid system with batteries and it produces what I consume, nothing more.

The recoup will be different here. Our utilities cost are quite a bit different here. My electric costs are double yours. I avg about 60kWh a day. The set up they are offering is 46 panels. Currently, at $.13 a kWh, I am paying an avg of $238 a month. The solar will be $213 a month assuming I get the will26% credit to apply against the loan. At that price, I am already coming out ahead. The question for me is if the cost of electric will remain this high or if they will drop back down once the economy gets back on track. If the electric drops back to the $.09 a kWh I was paying then the system will not pay off.

The contract here allows me to use any utility company I choose, some of which have no minimum usage requirement.

When I looked into the battery systems, the batters came with a short warranty and high replacement cost. Factoring in what I need to run this house, the cost of a battery system was way more than straight solar.

[speednjay]

$.13kwh? Daym I miss those days. I think I’m paying $.55kwh last time I checked. Yay California