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  #1  
Old 12-16-2002, 10:55 AM
mikemover's Avatar
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The socialists are coming!

Good morning boys and girls. Allow me to stir up some more *****.

Excerpted from www.boortz.com:


FUN WITH THE DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND

Many Boortz listeners are now frequent visitors to the Internet's premiere comment board for Democrats. It's called DemocraticUnderground.com. Over the weekend my ever-alert listeners brought two different conversation threads to my attention.

The first thread began with a suggestion by one Democrat that the Congress be equally divided between men and women. Why? Because "Congress is Unjust" That's why. This person didn't bother to explain why it would be "just" to deny to a voter the right to vote for a candidate of their choice. Here's your link to that thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID60/22942.html

The second thread is more alarming. Here we have a posting from some Democrat entitled "It's official. I'm a socialist at heart." Here you go:

It's official, I'm a socialist at heart. Last night a friend drove my husband and I around after dinner to look at the Christmas lights. One area we went to, where my friend's in-laws live, had multi-million dollar homes. These houses look like office buildings or hotels and most have only two people (rich, old, white couples) living in them. I can't stand it. In a country where people are homeless, children have no medical insurance, and families go hungry how could anyone sleep in a home that would hold a small town. Aaarrrggg. My friends in-laws do not give to charity unless it puts their name out in public or helps them somehow. And they sure as hell don't do anything just to help someone else. These people have so much stuff they can only fit one of their cars in their 4 car garage because its full of the expensive crap they buy & don't have room for in their mansion. They travel all over the world, by can't pay for a day nurse so an elderly relative can stay in their own home. I really cannot stand rich, selfish people. I do believe in redistribution of wealth. Rich people do not get that way by themselves, they do it on the backs of others. Thank you for allowing me to rant.

Now don't get the mistaken impression that this posting was an anomaly. Here are some of the messages that followed. Each paragraph is a different post from a different member of DemocraticUnderground.com

--And I couldn't agree more. Rich people don't earn their money.

--In a land where continuous warfare is a national priority, where the health needs of people are not prioritized and leaders are appointed via the corruption of precedence in its Supreme Court, socialism has a great appeal.

--Only misguided fools believe that the rich earned their spot as such. Only misguided fools believe that **** they tell you that they got to the top through "hardwork", "determination", and "American values." That is all bunk.

--Rich people got rich by SCREWING everyone else. Rich people stay rich by SCREWING everyone else EVEN HARDER. THAT is what you are seeing in America today. THAT is what you have seen in America for the last hundred years.

--But it doesn't have to be that way. We can build a better country. The constitution DOES NOT require capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system, democracy is a system of government. They are separable, and I believe, should be.

--These people got lucky with a stock split. My father died when I was 5, my mom finished college, became a teacher and raised 4 kids by herself, worked her ass off, scrimped, and did without. These people did not work harder than she did. My mother gives her money and time to many worth while causes and these rich f**ks go shopping for more crap they don't need.

--All liberals are socialists at heart We know that socialism (not necessarily the Marxian brand) will end up being the only way, since we believe that the government is there, not only to govern, but to help people as well.

Now, here's where it gets scary. One of the members of Democratic Underground answered a question as to just how his ideal socialist society would be created. The questions asked of this person are first, followed by his responses. Read this and be VERY afraid.

First, let me say that there is no blueprint as to how socialism in America will come about, or what it will look like exactly. What is presented below are the things I would propose and fight for in building toward a socialist society.

1. Would you abolish ownership of private property?
--In the means of production, yes. The factories, mills, shops and major sources of raw materials/natural resources would be immediately placed under social ownership and workers' control. The larger stores of distribution (e.g., WalMart) would also be placed under similar organization.

2. Would you abolish the free market?
--What "free market"? There is no "free market". That is a capitalist myth. Any "free market" that ever existed under capitalism died with the rise of the monopolies.

3. What exactly does "workers owning the means of production" look like to you?
--Shop committees of workers sitting down and planning out what they create, how much and for how long, in order to provide the needed products to the public. These committees would work together with similar bodies on a local, regional and national (and, eventually, international) level, in order to make sure enough items are produced for every human on the planet.

4. What sort of governmental system would you have?
--At first, elected Councils of Workers' Representatives, organs of mass democracy, on a neighborhood, municipal, regional and national (and, eventually, international) level, meeting to set public policy. Over time, these councils would cede more of its "power" to the shop committees, thus letting the state "wither away" into little more than an administrative body. But this last part can only really begin in earnest once workers around the world have liberated themselves from capitalism.

Here's the link if you would like to read this entire thread. Remember ... this is a comment board for Democrats. Now maybe you know why I refer to them as Democratic Socialists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID60/22444.html

If you're not bothered by all of that, you must also be socialist, or Canadian! Sorry...couldn't resist. No offense to our sane Canadian members.

Mike

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  #2  
Old 12-16-2002, 11:12 AM
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Apart from your comment that people should be able to vote for the candidate of their choice (which I believe is a sound socialist principle), I don't see any thoughtful critique of the ideas of which you suggest we should be afraid.
Perhaps you should give a decent defense of the liberating power of multinational corporate capitalism.
Canada strikes me as a fundamentally decent society. Before the right wing free market capitalists started to gain a foothold in the 80's and 90's it was very hard to find a homeless person in the big cities. Not so anymore.
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  #3  
Old 12-16-2002, 11:25 AM
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The merits of having the right to keep what you earn seem obvious to me...I guess that's an assumption I should not make. Ask Piotr (another member here) what he thinks of the socialist way of life...He experienced it firsthand, and was not impressed. IF you think capitalism is wide-open for corruption, wait 'till you try socialism!

OK, I'm about to open a HUGE can of worms here...I've been reserving comment on this, but now's the time: Canada has the "luxury" of socialized healthcare, and many other tax-funded/redistribution-based socialist programs, because the UNITED STATES foots the bill, both financially and manpower-wise, for defending our North American way of life! If they were sharing that huge responsibility with us, 50/50, I think their outlook on many things would change.

So there. Let the flame wars begin. I'm zipping up my Kevlar suit as you read this!

Mike
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  #4  
Old 12-16-2002, 12:12 PM
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I don't see any contradiction between your first claim and socialism. One of the important views of Marx was that workers added value to natural resources but could not retain all that value because a portion of it was profit which went to people who did no work at all. In other words, people (owners of companies)are getting money they did not earn.
There are a wide range of socialist views available just as there is a wide range of capitalist views available. There is state socialism and libertarian socialism. There are state capitalists, small capitalists and multinational capitalists.
Your latter claim about defense staggers me. When was the last time Canada invaded anyone? The US needs a large army to support its massive empire which serves the interests of multinational corporations. Any doubt about this can be removed by reading the report America's Defense Strategy(title may not be precisely correct) produced by Wolfowitz and his colleagues in the late 1990's.
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  #5  
Old 12-16-2002, 12:26 PM
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Why dummers shouldn't think...

Sorry, had to throw in that jibe.

I am also staggered at your suggestion.

Canada is a peaceful nation and perhaps we don't have a massive military because we don't NEED ONE. Who would possibly invade us? Russia? Er, no. The U.S?

When was the last terrorist attack in Canada? When were we last invaded/threatened? I think that was back in late 1700-something...

Many peaceful European nations also have relatively small militaries. Is this because they are riding on someone else's back or simply because their geography/political stance allows them the benefit of a peaceful existence with a low/NIL risk of attack?

The US chooses to assume the role of globo-cop and gains the benefits of doing so. Let's face it, many of the US's economic and political interests are at stake in many of the confrontations they face.

Whenever the world has been threatened by an *evil* force/goverment, Canada has been there to help and our soldiers/armies have played key roles and per capita, we've lost just as many of our sons/daughters for freedom.

So before you make such statements, maybe you should reflect a bit more.
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  #6  
Old 12-16-2002, 01:56 PM
mbz380se
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The U.S. already has a Socialist Party.

They really haven't made any progress since the days of Eugene V. Debs.

This sounds like just another rant to equate "Democrat" with "Socialist".

And with that, I'm off to Canada in a couple of hours. Hee hee.

-Sam
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  #7  
Old 12-16-2002, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TXBill
If i can find a warm place to live in Canada I'm packing my bags.
Vancouver is warm, so is Toronto. Lots of warms spots in Canada. You actually have to go south from Minnesota to get to Toronto.

Kuan
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  #8  
Old 12-16-2002, 03:54 PM
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Vancouver is better than Toronto for no rust, they don't get as much snow. Furthermore, and per your previous post, marijuana is widely tolerated there, to the extent that there is a café there named "The New Amsterdam Café", whose proprietor is named "The Prince of Pot".

Oh, they also have excellent sushi and with your American dollar you'll be eating like royalty as well.
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"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon
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  #9  
Old 12-16-2002, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kerry edwards
I don't see any contradiction between your first claim and socialism. One of the important views of Marx was that workers added value to natural resources but could not retain all that value because a portion of it was profit which went to people who did no work at all. In other words, people (owners of companies)are getting money they did not earn.
Owners of companies do not earn their income? Since when? Just how do you think any given company BECAME a company? It's because the owner WORKED to create it! No company acheives and maintains any degree of success without someone at the top who is very hard working, astute, and a good organizer and leader. Companies do not start and run themselves!

The fact that you see no contradiction there is the very root of the problem. Too many people see no contradiction there.

Quote:
Originally posted by kerry edwards
There are a wide range of socialist views available just as there is a wide range of capitalist views available. There is state socialism and libertarian socialism. There are state capitalists, small capitalists and multinational capitalists.
We could discuss the subtleties and variations endlessly. The bottom line is: Socialism is by FAR the greater of the evils. Capitalism can be abused, democratic principles can be abused, but socialism guarantees abuse! Look at the majority of the socialist/communist-governed countries in Europe and Asia today, and in recent history. The more socialist-leaning a country's government is, the more you will find poverty, corruption, human rights abuses, arrested economic and industrial development, and the more likely the country's government and infrastructure will self-destruct in time (the USSR comes to mind?...) and they inevitably come running to countries like the US, England, Canada, etc. for help! The opposite is true of countries where individual rights are protected, and income and assets are not redistributed.

Quote:
Originally posted by kerry edwards
Your latter claim about defense staggers me. When was the last time Canada invaded anyone? The US needs a large army to support its massive empire which serves the interests of multinational corporations. Any doubt about this can be removed by reading the report America's Defense Strategy(title may not be precisely correct) produced by Wolfowitz and his colleagues in the late 1990's.
The US has it's fingers in a LOT of plates that it should not have, all around the world. And I have said so on numerous occasions. Our government should NOT be the police force of the world--I agree with you there as well. If it is not in defense of our own interests, then we should not be involved. BUT...much of the world has come to EXPECT the US to be their "police force" and to come to the rescue anytime something comes along that they don't want to deal with themselves, whether it be financially, militarily, environmentally...

When you acheive a certain level of success, of any kind, you will inevitably have made some enemies, and encountered some undeserved jealousy or resentment. That is true on an individual level, and it is also true on many larger levels, including internationally. Most of the governments who love to blame their predicament on the US choose to ignore the fact that millions of their own citizens are banging down the doors of our INS, or just sneaking past the border illegally, in an attempt to LIVE in the US! If we're the "bad guy", then why do so many from other places--socialist and communist places!--risk life and limb trying to come here? They love to complain about us on TV, but they sure do love to come here and get their hands on some of our freedom and money too, don't they?!

Do you seriously think Canada would not have had to defend itself from the USSR or China at some point (or Muslims, the way things are going!), if US firepower had not been next door? Your beautiful country would have been annexed long ago! I'm not saying that to imply Canada "owes" us anything, or as an insult, or to be arrogant--even though I'm sure I'll be called that by someone anyway--it's just a reality!

Well, I knew I would be inviting the "wrath of the northerners" on this one...Go ahead...call me insensitive or arrogant or something...I know you want to... :p

Mike
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Last edited by mikemover; 12-16-2002 at 04:43 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-16-2002, 04:48 PM
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Not a Northerner.
Sorry, I forget that the US invasions were people asking for the US to be their police force. The Iranians asked the US to install the Shah, The Chileans asked the US to overthrow their democratically elected government. The Iraqis asked the US to help install Hussein in power and are asking us to invade now. The Iraqi people asked the US to supply their dictator with biological agents.
It's not accidental that these countries have natural resources valuable to US corporations.
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  #11  
Old 12-16-2002, 05:00 PM
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I know, it's so easy to blame it on the "big bad wolf" corporations, isn't it?

Let me quote myself, since you must have missed it in the previous post:

The US has it's fingers in a LOT of plates that it should not have, all around the world. And I have said so on numerous occasions. Our government should NOT be the police force of the world--I agree with you there as well. If it is not in defense of our own interests, then we should not be involved. BUT...much of the world has come to EXPECT the US to be their "police force" and to come to the rescue anytime something comes along that they don't want to deal with themselves, whether it be financially, militarily, environmentally...


To elaborate:

The US has overextended it's welcome in many places, and has made foreign policy mistakes left and right...Have you noticed that, as a Libertarian, I'm constantly bashing the Democrats AND Republicans on a very regular basis? They are not that different from each other in many ways. I'm very much a non-interventionist, unless there is an obvious threat or risk to the US. At the same time, the US is not to blame in many situations where we have helped to remove one oppressive ruler, and the population of that country does not organize to prevent another one from moving in to take his place! We need to stop getting involved in ALL of those situations, so that we can stop being kicked in the ankles later by people who are unhappy with the results.

It's so obvious what's going on with the oil issue...If our very own enviro-nazis would shut up and let us get on with producing more of our OWN, then we wouldn't NEED the Middle East oil, now would we?! Of course, we can't do that, because that would remove every anti-capitalist's favorite scape-goat, wouldn't it?!!!

Mike
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1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
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1985 300TD
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Last edited by mikemover; 12-16-2002 at 05:06 PM.
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  #12  
Old 12-16-2002, 05:34 PM
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There's no reason to fear a socialist takeover (not that I would say thats a such a bad thing). Look around on the internet and you can find large contingent of radical groups such as ultra-conservatives, neo-nazis (anyone else see that sickening HBO documentary on this subject?), communists, etc. The socialists are no more likely to start a revolution than any of these other freaks.
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  #13  
Old 12-16-2002, 05:56 PM
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Socialists have already introduced some parts of their radical social agenda into US culture. The Communist Manifesto calls for free education for everyone. Next time you walk past your local public school and think about the potential that is being developed in those children, remember that it was the efforts of the radical socialists that got those young children out of the factories and into the classroom. In fact this past summer I visited the very first free school open to the children of people other than the ruling class at the New Lanark Textile Mill. Who started it--that crazy socialist Robert Owen.
I'll be waiting for the response that there should be a free market in education and the children of the poor don't have a right to an education.
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  #14  
Old 12-16-2002, 10:58 PM
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hmmmm If this country would have started out socialistic I'm sure we would still be the most powerful country in the world.. (sarcastic voice)

Not to mention the country that everyother country would call to help get them out of trouble.

In my American Gov. class we have been studying about a US military base in a country that shall remain nameless. The US government has concluded that we are no longer need at this location but we stay only because of the economic disaster that would occur if we were to leave...(because of the revenues created by US soldiers.) Yeah, we're a terrible country !


Sorry if I seem a bit on edge...I love my Country ...freedom and right to free enterprise...

If your an american and you hate the government and think nothing can be changed with a vote.....The freedom of america allows you the right to leave and never come back..

You are the weekest link....Goodbye
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  #15  
Old 12-16-2002, 11:01 PM
AndrewK
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Quote:
Originally posted by drbrandini
The freedom of america allows you the right to leave and never come back..

You are the weekest link....Goodbye
Yep. Europe always get the better M-Bs anyway....

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