American freedoms, are they taken for granted? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Plantman · #1 02-27-2003, 11:10 PM

I often think about this as I sit in a bar, go to a movie with my wife and kids and basically recreate and enjoy the freedoms that we have in our great county. The same freedoms that are not allowed in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..

The aim of the terrorist is to instill fear in their intended victims, to have their victims bow down and acquiese to their demands, whatever they may be.

What would happen if while I was going to the movies with my wife and kids, sitting at a bar with friends, playing basketball, or at any public venue, some fundamentalist Muslim strapped a few grenades to his chest and decided to take 50 lives with him for his "cause"?

Let me take it a step further. What if it happened in multiple events? orchestrated by these "cells" that the FBI and CIA claim still exist?

As far as I know, this has never happened here in our country. Terrorist attacks at home have been limited, in comparison to Israel, for example.

I throw this out there as I go about my daily life living with a newfound paranoia, and concern for the future of our families, country, world, etc...

Why hasn't it happened here? Are our govt intelligence agencies so adept at finding this stuff out that we can continue to be naive with our own security?

Are these terrorist's so unorganized that we would spot them prior? Are the fear of reprisals so real that it keeps all but 19, or 20 crazies from trying us?

Should we expect more attacks?

Would American citizens bear arms and kick some ass in mosques throughtout the country if the crazy misinformed one's were the cause?

As sad as it may seem, a lot of innocents would be persecuted for a greater good.

I throw this out there as food for thought and discussion, not meant to offend anyone, just some thoughts that pop into my head as I go through life.

Thanks for listening.

Plantman

LuckyF8 · #2 02-27-2003, 11:48 PM

Well my friend................

WWW.freedomarms.com

Top quality, learn how to use it. It will help in more ways than one!

Plantman · #3 02-27-2003, 11:55 PM

Glock .40

Beretta 92f

Sig Sauer P220

are at the ready in case. Just wanted some discussion.

LuckyF8 · #4 02-28-2003, 12:03 AM

Don't worry there is nothing anyone can do but stay sharp.

I would use the Sig

jeffwolinski · #5 02-28-2003, 02:49 AM

Benelli M3 tactical shotgun, personally.

Of course our freedoms are taken for granted, but the left-wingers are the ones most out to take away freedom to speak your mind, defend yourself and your family, your country, etc.. Hopefully American individualism will survive and thrive, lest we end up like the friggin French.

Potomac Pat · #6 02-28-2003, 09:27 AM

L1A1 - Long distance connection

Bushmaster .223 w/ comp barrel, preloaded mags, NATO tracers every 5th shot.

I treid my ass of to accquire some steel core rounds, but no luck on my part. Well seeing as how they are "illegal"

USP .40S&W - for those close encounters.

Jeff, that Benelli M3 tac is an AWESOME shotgun !!! Nice choice man.

jeffwolinski · #7 02-28-2003, 10:04 AM

I do love my Benelli, along with several others. I see that you're in Frederick - thank God that Ehrlich won the gov. election, or you could have been kissing your firearms goodbye. I just moved to VA from MD, how ironic that now I live in a state with a Dem. governor with a Rep. in MD. I NEVER expected that to be the case. However, Warner isn't too bad, and he is definitely no KKT.

Potomac Pat · #8 02-28-2003, 12:55 PM

No doubt Jeff. If Townsend would have won I am sure we would have lost all of our gun rights.

After the whole sniper incident months ago, the gun debate was brought back to the front page. What a joke !!! It's bad enough that on every handgun purchased, there has to be a trigger lock in place.

Yeah right, like I am going to mess w/ a trigger lock when there is an intruder. I am cocked, locked & one in the pipe as it stands anyway. I don't have children as of yet, but I will make sure that they are made aware of the dangers involved w/ firearms. there is no substitute for education.

"When firearms are outlawed, only the outlaws will have firearms."

Plantman · #9 02-28-2003, 04:50 PM

WIth all due respect, I didn't mean for the thread to start a firearm discussion.

I was wondering how we all felt in terms of our vulnerablity, etc...

Thanks

jeffwolinski · #10 02-28-2003, 05:03 PM

I think it just seemed to veer in that direction since we are talking about threatened freedoms, and those that favor the right to self-protection are very in tune with taking their rights seriously. There is a direct correlation to the Iraq issue.

In regard to our vulnerability, we certainly are more cognizant of our vulnerabilities to outside threats than we were beofre 9/11, and there are those that would trade freedoms for greater protection (or at least a sense of security). I think that is the wrong direction to head in.

We do know that all 19 hijackers were young radical Islamist men, and continuing to search old women at airports or tightening gun control laws are doing absolutely nothing for our security. Profiling may be a dirty word in this PC era, but it is exactly what must be done to protect this country. Likening Ashcroft to a police-state type henchman is ridiculous, even though I agree that some recent policies are going too far.

Bottom line is yes, all too many Americans take their freedoms for granted. If people spent a bit more time reading, or at least watching The History Channel, as opposed to standard TV-fare we would have a much more enlightened population that is appreciative of the freedoms they enjoy.

Plantman · #11 02-28-2003, 06:31 PM

That's what I was looking for. I agree that the topic lent itself to the firearm issue and I do enjoy the topic.

While I don't agree that we ought to live in a police state, I think that there are certain things/laws that need to be enforced.

From the outside looking in, airport security is a joke.

I spend a lot of times in commercial buildings and could plant an explosive device if I were so inclined and informed enough to do so.

I like to believe that perhaps our govt is doing a better job than we give them credit for. If we stop and think, we only hear of the intelligence failures because of the casualties. Their successes are hardly reported, due to secrecy laws, sources, etc..

I agree that we all need to be more aware of our surroundings and continue to live our lives, while being aware.

Plantman

#12 03-01-2003, 02:10 PM

Yup, far too many Americans take their freedom for granted. On no other day than election day is this more profoundly obvious.

As for feeling more vulnerable. Personally, I do not. Where I work at least has some semblance of security, and I don't "go out" much. I never fly as I enjoy my driving too much, and would miss viewing the scenery on my travels, regardless of how many times I've been on that particlular road. We live in a big country, and the out and out chances that the place that I happen to be at, at that particular time is going to be the target to a coward is pretty remote.

I do feel that the more immediate threat to our personal freedom is the liberal left. Nanny government and gun laws have done nothing more than intrude on the law abiding, while the criminals continue to get the upper hand against a gradually increasingly disarmed law abiding public.

I'd say get a concealed handgun permit if your location allows, carry for your protection, and enjoy your free time with your family. That time is always far too short anyway to spend it stressing on remote possibilities.

My personal guess would be that the coward will stand out to some extent as they will be somewhat nervous at what they are about to do, both from the standpoint of the fact that they are about to deliberately end their own life, and wanting to insure that they reach their objective. About along the lines of any other common gutter criminal.

blackmercedes · #13 03-01-2003, 04:46 PM

We have as much, or more freedom from violence as you Yanks, and we don't carry guns. I don't think the two are related. Also, I have no idea of how having a Glock in your jeans would keep you from being a victim of a bomber? Can someone explain?

We are vulnerable to terrorist attack, mostly due to our level of compliance. But, this level of compliance is one of the things that makes our nation great. Why would we want to live in fear?

What about the hypothesis that terrorists don't strike here because we would carpet-bomb their entire nation if they do it? Anyone want to talk to that? Don't "quote" me on it, I'm just throwing that out...

jeffwolinski · #14 03-02-2003, 12:29 AM

Canada did have a significant gun culture until the new registration fiasco, which is apparently costing way more than expected, hasn't really solved any crimes or made anyone any safer, and of course is only inconveniencing those that see moral and social relevance in obeying laws.

The biggest reason for the large amount of gun crimes in this country is the drug trade, and an extremely small proportion of our population is responsible for a huge majority of gun crimes and deaths. Unfortunately, PC rules prohibit me from actually mentioning the relevant segments involved, or I would be permanently ostracized from society and banished to France.

Concealed carry can and has been effective in stopping rampaging maniacs and limiting casualties, unfortunately these stories are often buried or not reported. I hate to bring up Israel because that can lead us in another totally different direction, but suicide (or homicide, or crazy frigging idiot) bombers have been stopped before detonating their explosives by undercover police or armed citizens (common in Israel).

Unfortunately concealed carry is not going to provide much deterence to a fuel-laden 747, but armed and trained pilots could have prevented the 9/11 disaster.

In regard to the deterrence value of carpet bombing, I do not think carpet bombing is the appropriate strategy, but I do believe that the world and especially the Taliban, al Qaeda, etc. were pretty damn surprised by our swift and decisive response. This may have emboldened some to join their cause, but I believe it caused a few to wake up and "smell the coffee".

Or, could that be the smell of s**t in their pants?

blackmercedes · #15 03-02-2003, 12:37 AM

Canada does have a significant gun culture, and the registry is on it's way out.

That said, we don't carry guns. Only police may carry guns. It is not a ban on guns. It's just a law about carrying it around with you.

Now, trying to draw a correlation between allowing citizens to carry guns and low crime does not seem to work for me. We have no carrying allowed, and we have significantly less crime.

Would armed pilots have stopped 9-11? Maybe. Maybe not. Can't say for sure. Sealed cockpits might do the same thing.