Saddam's human shredding machines - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BENZ-LGB · #1 03-17-2003, 09:55 PM

For those who oppose the war against Iraq's Saddam Hussein. For those of you who will not listen to any argument in support of the war. For those of you who are willing to repeat the same tired old prattle that this is a war for oil. For those of you who, like the cowardly french, russian, german and chinese governments will not support ANY war against Saddam. For those of you who say nyet to war and thus give comfort and support to the dictator, please take the time to read the following:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-614607,00.html

Manu, Snibble, et al. After reading the above article, do you still oppose the war???

MTI · #2 03-17-2003, 10:09 PM

Read this and tell me you're for any war:

War Page

Our Hemisphere

Manifest Destiny

Born in the USA

Under the UN Flag

We Have Met the Enemy and He is Us

mikemover · #3 03-17-2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MTI
Read this and tell me you're for any war:

So what's your point? You're saying that since the US has made many mistakes in the past, like EVERY society in history has and continues to do, and since people FROM the US have committed crimes, like people from EVERY society in history have and continue to do, we should not now do the RIGHT thing, and liberate Iraq from a regime that is guilty of crimes at least as terrible as the ones written about in those links?

War is always an atrocity. But sometimes it is needed, to put and end to GREATER atrocities.

Mike

BENZ-LGB · #4 03-17-2003, 11:33 PM

"War is always an atrocity. But sometimes it is needed, to put and end to GREATER atrocities."

Mike

Mike's comments are exactly on target. War is hell, no rational human being would argue otherwise. MTI and those who think like him fail to address the bigger question: What do you do when faced with unspeakable evil (yes, I will use the word "evil")? Do you just sit idly by and do nothing hoping that it will just go away? Or do you resort to war, with all of its horrific consequences, and nip evil on the bud?

I guess that I just can't understand the mindset of the so-called doves who would rather live under the boot of oppression than fight. As the lines from Man of La Mancha say, a man must be willing to "...march into hell for a heavenly cause."

tkd_M119 · #5 03-18-2003, 01:02 AM

What are we waiting for? My fuel gauge is on "E" and I also use dino instead of synthetic. To make matters worse, I'm due for an oil change!

DieselHead · #6 03-18-2003, 09:20 AM

Again, for the hawks, not everyone who doesn't blindly follow Bush is against war, like myself. I'm sure there are many who have been raising issues and concerns about the war who are NOT opposed to military action.

Quote:

heavenly cause

Remember that heavenly causes are always such in the eyes of the crusader. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Napoleon, they all probably thought that what they were doing was good. It's very dangerous to invoke words like "heavenly." Religion has often given people the justification to do terrible things through the claim that they have some kind of mandate, or that they're fated. Just because someone believes that God told them to do something doesn't make it right.

Quote:

O' right so why don't we just let terrorist nations build themselves up to Nazi standards and kill us without real war. At least they will still be alive. Makes a lot of sense. What a bunch of ANTI American sentiment.

What does that even mean? You have a lot of disjointed comments there, but I think the jist of what you're saying is that if we don't do anything, they'll amass large amounts of weapons and then attack us while we're "sleeping?" Be careful of your use of the "anti-American" label. Your implication that just because someone may disagree makes them anti-American has a ring of McCarthy paranoia to it. Just because someone does not agree with you doesn't mean that they hate their country. Everyone has a different opinion about what is best and it is the debate and discourse that makes this country so great.

Quote:

"War is always an atrocity. But sometimes it is needed, to put and end to GREATER atrocities."

This is true, but it's very 'ends justifying the means,' which can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Again, all wars are always justified by those who start them.

jeffwolinski · #7 03-18-2003, 10:35 AM

I would have to say that people spitting on Gulf War vets would probably qualify as America-haters. Does anyone remember that the Gulf War resolution barely passed the US Congress? I guess those that voted against it and those that supported that view would rather have let Hussein keep Kuwait than, heaven forbid, risk any lives to reverse it.

Pacifism will always fail in a world full of violence. Sure it would be wonderful to live in peace and harmony with all the world, but the fact is that this is a long, long way off, and military might and action is a necessity to protecting our freedoms and those of other free countries. This is a FACT, and not some idealized "vision" of what someone wishes the world to be.

DieselHead · #8 03-18-2003, 10:58 AM

Ok, I agree with you about the post Gulf War spitters. I believed in that war. I was too young to really know about it, but in hindsight, it was acceptable. I agree that military force is necessary, but prudence is also. We'll handily win this war. Our defense budget is upwards of $400 billion and Iraq's is maybe $1.4 billion. I'm still very concerned about the afterwards, and about this radical shift in defense and foreign policy doctrine. Bush has set up this doctrine of pre-emption and it'll be interesting to see if he follows up with the other rogue states. North Korea? Iran? North Korea has the potential to react in ways that Iraq could never. Iran has a democracy movement that could be hurt by US intervention. Bush has laid out this doctrine and needs to solidify it in the next year or two. It's a very sensitive issue.

When we need to rebuild Iraq, will we get the international support that we will NEED to provide food, shelter and power? Then, what do we do about setting up some kind of government in Iraq? Post war clean up won't nearly be as easy as in Japan. Iraq is a multi-ethnic state with extreme nationalism that is more a-kin to Yugoslavia, or Czechoslovakia. Senior advisors in this administration have acknowledged that they are not prepared for the problems that will be created.

Foreign investments are decreasing just as we need them most and our ability to pay for these wars and to keep up our deficits will become more and more difficult. When there is no one to pay the bill, Americans will be left to deal with the financial mess.

The doctrine established by the US will send a clear signal that we will be going after all the other "axis" countries when we're done with Iraq. Will we have any support in those wars? What will happen if, ironically, the other countries (North Korea, Iran, Syria) start arming themselves while we're too busy dealing with Iraq. What if they adopt our doctrine and attack us first?

jeffwolinski · #9 03-18-2003, 11:15 AM

Good questions. The reality is that probably no one knows the answers to these questions. Also, we could ask numerous similar questions if we do nothing in regard to Iraq.

DieselHead · #10 03-18-2003, 11:30 AM

Right, but they all need to be thought about with equal energy.

#11 03-18-2003, 12:07 PM

Oh, so we just ignore the problem and it will go away. Well at least there's plenty of sand over there for us to bury our heads in.

I have personally been spit on in an airport while wearing an Army uniform. Had it not been a very good looking young Blonde lady, I think they would have been carrying me away to jail after they pulled me off of the person. It was as if I had personally decided whether or not to go to war.

Regardless of a persons view of whether or not to go to war. I sincerely hope that they can understand that the soldiers salute smartly and do what they're told, providing it is not an immoral order.

The League of Nations in the thirties was at the very point that the United Nations has now reached, that of an ineffective organization. Had someone stepped up and bucked the League of Nations and taken Hitler out before he ammassed the weopons and Armies that he did, there would have been many million fewer lives lost.

What is the old saying? Something like "he who does not understand history is bound to repeat it?"

I heard some war protester saying something like: "Something horrendous is about to begin." The other way of looking at that is that "Something horrendous is about to END." What Hussein has been doing is horrendous.

May God be with our fighting young people and with the Iraqi citizens and other innocents.

Have a great day,

DieselHead · #12 03-18-2003, 02:43 PM

I don't think anyone should ever take up their complaints with the military servicemen. They do their job well and are loyal, and we owe a lot to them.

#13 03-18-2003, 03:22 PM

How will the US know how its new weapons are working without testing them in combat? God...thats what the war is really about!

#14 03-18-2003, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DieselHead
I don't think anyone should ever take up their complaints with the military servicemen. They do their job well and are loyal, and we owe a lot to them.

Then let them fight , your words are just that..... words.