After WW2 in 1948 ,the British handed over the Palestine Arab-Jew
problem to the United Nations.
The United Nations established separate Arab and Jewish states.
Not satisfied with the United Nation's action and resolution, the Arabs waged war on the Jews.
The Jews won the war and took more land than the U.N. had given in the first place.
So, by 1970 the Palestine Liberation Organization (Arab-Palestinian
Nationalism sprouted at the same time as Jewish-Nationalism)
was gaining ground and claiming that Arabs had the right to inhabit Palestine because they have been around since Mohammed's (imperialist) conquest in the 7th century.
By virtue of WAR spoils is their claim !
((In biblical times, the area now known as Palestine was occupied by the kingdoms of Israel and Judah- this was way before Mohammed's imperial colonialism))

So, what I have observed here is that Palestinian-Arabs don't care about what the United Nations has to deliver in any event. This was repeated by Arafat who refused an independent Palestine offer years ago.
They want the complete elimination of the Jews. That is my opinion.
This brings me to my own speculation: Saddam Hussein has wanted to re-invent 'Babylon'.
Well, historically, the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem.
Adolph Hitler wove his political ideology into mystical-mythology
which was designed to psychologically empower and capture the
dull hearts and minds of the general public.
I see a parallel here.

Prior to 1948, Palestine was occupied and ruled by many other empires before and after Mohammed (Muslims).

"Badges, what badges, we don't need no stink'in badges"

This seems to be the arab attitude.
They have become very adept at manipulating the protocols and rules of international politics. It is just a matter of what pleases them and if they dont get it, they fester and wail and act out in manners they know most other countries can't. Especially the United States.
Then it is up to others to clean up the dump.

So, give the inspectors of the United Nations more time to peacefully take care of Saddam?
I do not think so. They will turn against the U.N. like the past 11 years. They will make war against whoever using lowly tactics (can you draw terror?).

And now it is a "religious war against Moslems", so the Moslem clerics call to KILL Americans wherever (as do Columbia Univ. assist. profs) . What they seem to be experts of , is to project their intentions onto their opponents and
convince their people that the opponents are disdaining the Moslems.
This is called negative projection, bordering on narcisstic
cathexis, i.e. self hatred.
A neat psychological engine.

Mohammed was an imperialist by the way and he waged WAR.

The Palestine issue is presently cited as the true root of the Muslim
'bad hair day' in the middle east.

Well, the United Nations was not honored in 1948 and in recent history.

The world is just one big camel race !

(by the way, what is the average educational level in the Arab world and how many generations back can it be traced?)

__________________
1979 300D 220 K miles
1995 C280 109 K miles
1992 Cadillac Eldorado Touring Coupe 57K miles SOLD
********************
1979 240D 140Kmiles (bought for parents) *SOLD.
SAN FRANCISCO/(*San Diego)
1989 300SE 148 K miles *SOLD

before you state your opinion and reasoning, i think you might want to become a little more educated on the issue.

how is this so? just because they disagree with israels right to the land, doesnt mean they blow off every UN mandate, sanction, or wish. just remember, israel has broken more UN sanctions than Iraq. But i would never say that ALL Israelis blow off the UN.

Remember that Israel turned down the UN suggestion for solving the problem too. They didnt like how the land was divided either.

Iraq has never been associated with terrorism (prior to this current conflict), and would come up the least if you were to name Middle Eastern coutries that are more commonly associated with terrorism.

From this, I can clearly see either your not educated on the Arab-Palestinian-Israeli conflict, or you are just someone looking for attention.

If you wanna actually start to understand what the Palestinians are going through then i suggest you actually read up and educate yourself. You can start with a movie called "The Battle of Algers" Although its about the Algerian revolution, it accurately portrays what people feel like and how they are living under rule from an agressor, and its a mirror of the Arab-Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Theres alot of other movies and books out there too. "Exodus" also shows this. So before you jump on the political bandwagon, realize that education is key.

__________________
1989 260E
- 300E engine
1998 C230
1995 E320

pshibly writes in response to unkl300d's post:

If you wanna actually start to understand what the Palestinians are going through then i suggest you actually read up and educate yourself. You can start with a movie called "The Battle of Algers" Although its about the Algerian revolution, it accurately portrays what people feel like and how they are living under rule from an agressor, and its a mirror of the Arab-Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Theres alot of other movies and books out there too. "Exodus" also shows this. So before you jump on the political bandwagon, realize that education is key.

============================================================

Your suggestions that unkld300d watch movies to "educate" himself about the Palestinian issue makes no sense. What would you suggest next? That we all watch "Gone With the Wind" to better understand the Civil War? Or that we watch "Tore, Tora, Tora" to understand the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor? (Or for that matter, should we watch Disney's sanitized version?).

Israel is the only democracy in the region (Lebanon used to be fairly democratic until it was overrun by Syria). If Israel rejects UN's attempts to "solve" the Palestinian problem is only because the UN is controlled by 3rd world radical whose #1 goal is to harass the U.S. and Israel. BTW, these are the very same people who believe that the Jews control the world.

Unkl300d is correct in asserting that the lands currently occupied by Israel were, historically, occupied by the ancestors of the modern-day Israeli. Prior to 1948, modern-day Israel was just desert land, thousands of square miles of kitty litter (as a friend of mine described it). It was only after the Jews turned the land into a productive oasis, that everyone else developed a keen interest for it.

Unkl300d is also correct in stating that the ancient Babylonians, Saddam's claimed ancestors, invaded ancient Israel and took the Israelites as slaves. Would saddam do the same if given an opportunity? I have no doubt that he would.

Finally, unkl300d is correct in stating that the Arabs and Palestinians are only interested in UN resolutions that favor them, at Israel's expense. If Israel was only interested in land conquest, then Israel would not have returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, while at the same time expelling Jewish settlers from the peninsula. The PLO, on the other hand, refuses to rein in the homicide bombers who have stalled, and now killed, the peace process.

Instead of implying that unkl300d is "ignorant" of the facts, why don't you provide a few facts of your own, instead of rehashing the same hoary Arab and Palestinian propaganda.

__________________
Current Benzes

1989 300TE "Alice"
1990 300CE "Sam Spade"
1991 300CE "Beowulf" RIP (06.1991 - 10.10.2007)
1998 E320 "Orson"
2002 C320 Wagon "Molly Fox"

Res non semper sunt quae esse videntur

My Gallery

Not in this weather!

and the US isnt only interested in UN resolutions that help them?? it goes both ways.

if youve seen the movies, youd understand they dont have a political agenda or are biased. and theyre compliments to the hundreds of thousands of books on the subject. and, especially the Battle of Algers..... that mirrors the Arab-Palestinian-Israeli conflict so closely, its crazy.... thats what political scientists do.. they compare things and these are two great cases to look at. so all i have to say, is watch the movie before you start to mock me saying Gone With the Wind has relevance. If anything, it has relevance to the US, in that it romanticized the Old South.

anyone with education on the issue can spit out the facts to make their support for a cause look right. but when you start to degrade a society, a people, or a group, based on what a small percentage of their population is doing, is wrong. Im an american, yet im not the one who overthrew the Iranian government when Mohammad Reza was in control. Was it you? Or was that just the CIA. Thats what i thought. Im frusterated when they call all Americans murderers. Shouldnt you be too? It goes both ways, and we can use hundreds of examples to see this, not just the Arab-Palestinian-Israeli conflict. So, stay away from generalizing, and asking what the arab education level is to try and degrade them.

__________________
1989 260E
- 300E engine
1998 C230
1995 E320

Hmm, if Saddam has no ties to terrorism, why is he (was he?) paying $25,000 to the families of the homicide bombers?
Seems like a clear connection to me.

UN since 1948 was a tool for soviets, africans and arabs to screw the west. period. Most east eastern european countries support an idea of cashing in UN and starting from ground zero (no pun intended). We watched this crap long enough.

__________________
1985 190D 2.2l Sold-to Brother-in-law
1996 Mustang 3.8l -"thinks it's a sports car"
1988 Grand Wagoneer - Sold (good home)
1995 Grand Cherokee Ltd -"What was I thinking??!!"

I don't want to get in to this too deep. All I would like to say is, if a person is willing to sell his soul for a lousy $25,000 which he cannot live and enjoy he shouldnt be with us in the first place. Any person believing he is going to heaven for blowing himself up to kill innocent people is just a moron. And I know some of you will say, that those people do it for thier families to get the money, I think if you love your family and your family loves you no amount of money will justify killing yourself. I believe that Israel will never give up the land no matter what, and they shouldnt. As for the Palestinians, kill them all before they kill themselves and take many innocent people with them.

__________________
94 E500 Sport
SOLD:
2002 BMW M3 Coupe 6 Speed.
SOLD:
92 500E Black Pearl, Black.
18" 2 Piece AMG
ASR Defeat
Performance Chip
Crossed Drilled Rotors.

wwwwwwwooooooooooooowwwwwwwww.

talk about ignorance. im done with this thread

__________________
1989 260E
- 300E engine
1998 C230
1995 E320

Let's get knowledgeable about this subject, and learn some facts. The people who carried out the 9/11 attacks were both a combination of duped fools told that they were hijacking American airliners to support the cause of Islamic Jihad, and an elite cadre of ultra-fanatical Islamic extremists who were solely responsible for all of their deaths.

The duped fools had no idea that they were to be sacrificed along with the passengers and crew that day. The leaders who were the extremists bent upon the total destruction of everyone involved (including themselves) were driven to the act by illusions of them sitting at the right hand of Allah, surrounded by virgins and plenty in an afterlife of unimaginable paradise. Monetary gain had NOTHING to do with their willing sacrifice.

These kind of people are twisted fanatics who are so caught up in the fervor of their beliefs that they are easily manipulated by radical clerics and madmen like Usama bin Laden who operate on their own agenda. In actual fact, it is an unpardonable sin by the law of the Qu'ran to kill another person, except in self defense, and a bigger sin if that person is also a Muslim. To have done so guarantees an eternity in the lake of fire, not the rewards of paradise.

The people who carry out these heinous acts are seduced by the charismatic notion of favor above all favors with their god in an eternal afterlife, not the lure of a lousy $25,000.00. In addition, they are told that their name will be written in gold in a book of heroes and martyrs by Allah himself, and that their sacrifice will benefit their ancestors as well as their families and children when they all see one another once again in the favor and glorious splendor of paradise.

The worst part of the whole Islamic extremist campaign against the west is that they will willingly distort the teachings of the Qu'ran to such a degree that what they then believe bears almost no resemblance to the original teachings they should have learned as children.

The term "Jihad", for instance, is meant to describe the struggle within a man to understand his place in the universe,and his relationship with Allah. It is a "holy war" that is waged inside oneself between the forces of the spiritual man (good), and the baser instincts of human nature (evil). It was never meant to be interpreted as a war against "the infidels", or against any race or culture.

The people who really suffer here the most are the Muslims themselves, not the Jews or Christians. I say that because it is these extremists who victimize their own people, while abandoning the fundamental and quite valid teachings of the religion that they believe they are doing so much to preserve and exalt.

While it may be understandable to fight against an enemy, to do it by using your own people as weapons and so much cannon fodder is truly unforgiveable. And to ignorantly proclaim that you are doing so in the name of Allah, with the blessings of Allah, and for the good of those people you are killing in the process is truly delusional.

If you look at this from the perspective of a being from another world with no preconceived idealogies or biases, what makes no sense in this conflict is how these three religions, Judiasm, Christianity, and the latter, Islam, are all following the teachings of the same root prophets and the same root god. It is the interpretation of the original texts, the subsequent added teachings of those who would interpret those texts, and the final application of those now perverted versions of the original texts that are the cause for all of the strife and hatred between these people.

As for the Palestinians, they too, are pawns in an elaborate chess game being played between their own clerics, leaders, and various political forces around the world. We, as Americans predominantly support Israel because we have a large Jewish population, and because we saw, first hand, the inhumanity of the gulags and death camps of WWII. So we believe that the Jewish people are entitled to their own country where they can be free to govern themselves in their historical homeland. But the people of Palestine are equally entitled to their own land as well.

This is a complicated and ancient struggle between ancient religions with deep-rooted differences, but killing an entire people on either side of the conflict is certainly not a rational option.

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Man, Scott, that was an excellent answer. I wish I could've written it.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Ditto!

__________________
Glen Tokuhara
Beauty & the Beast and the wagon that could!

Along with peace, respect, and dignity.

Scott, well said. The vast majority of Muslims are innocents and are the products of a world and their society which doesn't give them a voice.

Alex

__________________
1983 300D (parked for four years)
2012 VW Sportwagen TDI Manual
2001 Miata SE
1962 Chevrolet Corvair Rampside

Thanks to all who have opined so far.
Well, this thread was posted in the open discussion because that is exacly what this part of the forum is for.
I hoped to get some opinions in order to flesh out this theme. I stated some historical facts and my opinions. It is not intended as an academic paper and did elicit responses and reactions.

My gut feeling is still that the Arabs need to realize that their presence in Palestine was due to Mohammed's war machine
in the 7th century. The same war machine that conquered other countries and people. People who were forced to live under the rule of an aggressor. The conquered people under Mohammed did not enjoy equal priveleges as the 'true Muslim Arabs' did.

So , again I see the Palestine issue in gross terms. Palestine was not ruled by the Arabs at the time that the U.N. 1948 resolution
made for Israel and Palestinian states. Therefore the Arabs, it would seem, should accept what Mohammed handed out to controlled peoples back in their history, especially if they claim practically indiginous rights to the land of Palestine(which they are not truely indiginous to).
There has been many chances of resolution lost because of both sides, however it appears to me that the Arab side does not want the presence of Jews at all. That is why I feel they should
accept historical destiny , if I may use such a phrase, and get on with their lives.
As an after thought in my original post I queried about educational levels and how far back they can be traced because I also suspected that many Arabs come from generations of families having no formal education. Point being that the common masses
whom are being represented by a very small group of people, call them politicos and clerics for lack of better terminology, are vulnerable to being brainwashed. Alot of anti-U.S. sentiment among Arabs, I opine, is probably due to this rather than any other real premise (in relative terms, all things being equal) as well as anti-Jewish sentiment or any other target group. That is what I referred to as "the camel races" sic {The "chess game" .} Yeah, the world is full of intrigues and self-interests, but with regard to this situation, Arafat , I opine, has lately done his best to shunt away from fair resolutions and seems to be patronizing other agendas.(can you draw terror?)
Being such a hot topic that fuels a fire of Middle East unrest , I'd think that compromise for the benefit of peoples' lives would have been accepted by now rather than allow for the tripe of fanaticism and radical clerics who want to stir savagery.

Here is a link to the U.N. version of the Palestine issue.
Hairs can always be split in order to state each and every individual's gripe, but the Jews are there to stay and the Arabs have to accept that. My assumption and suspicion is that the Arabs want no Jews period.

Indeed, Longston has a very sober reply. Yes it is complicated but I believe it is being fired up unnecessarily.




http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/ec8db69f77e7a33e052567270057e591/3b58e8d0adf62b5f852561230077c62d!OpenDocument


Hope this link works.

__________________
1979 300D 220 K miles
1995 C280 109 K miles
1992 Cadillac Eldorado Touring Coupe 57K miles SOLD
********************
1979 240D 140Kmiles (bought for parents) *SOLD.
SAN FRANCISCO/(*San Diego)
1989 300SE 148 K miles *SOLD

Food for thought ,more links:



http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5270

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2000/08/F.RU.000804130919.html

http://www.msnbc.com/news/643005.asp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1571144.stm

http://village.flashnet.it/users/fn034463/fitnah.html

http://www.bartleby.com/65/wa/Wahhabi.html

http://www.ahle-sunnat.org.uk/WAHABI.html

__________________
1979 300D 220 K miles
1995 C280 109 K miles
1992 Cadillac Eldorado Touring Coupe 57K miles SOLD
********************
1979 240D 140Kmiles (bought for parents) *SOLD.
SAN FRANCISCO/(*San Diego)
1989 300SE 148 K miles *SOLD