Check this out:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4854657/

It appears as if a complete reassessment of strategy is going on over at DaimlerChrysler.

I am expecting big changes over the next 2-5 years. It appears as if the sleeping giant has finally awoken to the quality and prestige issues that have plagued it under the current regime and strategy.

What are your thoughts and reactions to this?

Cheers,
Gerry

I wonder if the outcome of this will lead to price increases.

All that money wasted on Mitsubishi . . . they should have just bought Lexus from Toyota.

It looks like things will get worse before it gets better.

More jelly bean styled form not following function models packed with electronics that make poor drivers and the general public feel secure. The "creature comforts" crowd wins in the near future.

I would love to see that pompus "I can do no wrong" Schrempp throw in the towel.
I don't think he has done anything well.

Money wasted on Mitsubishi could be spent on hydrogen internal combustion technology which BMW is the forerunner of. DaimlerChrysler would be wise to keep an eye on it since BMW rolls out the 7 series that can run on hydrogen fuel or gasoline in about 4 years in Europe.

I dream of a day the engineers will overpower the marketers to regain the dominant voice in the Mercedes-Benz arm of DaimlerChrysler.

I also dream of a day when the badge obsessed North American market can become more intelligent than it is vain and welcome Diesel powered vehicles with open arms.

Ordering a bottom spec Mercedes-Benz diesel powered car would be another dream.

I hope that the new BMW 1 and 2 series cars make the C Class hatchback look stupid. It in a nutshell is piss poor. And they have the nerve to call it a "Sports Coupe........ " ?

"I'd like to order the diesel engine with the ASR, ESP, ABC, COMAND delete option please...."

__________________
1989 300CE - 269,000 km
1994 SL600 - 59,000 km

I don't care what DCX does, as long as they keep supporting the older cars with parts. I for one think its great that parts are still updated for 20 year old cars.

__________________
'90 300SE 298k
-300K and it gets put into retirement.
'80 300D 255k Purchased new by family in 1980.

Had a:
1973 220 (gas)
1980 300SD
1992 400E

I saw an MB add a few days ago The add concluded a tight shot of the front of 2 MBs. The cars’ lights were off. The new logo: “Value unlike any other.” They are advertising to the benighted.

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Say bye bye to the EVO VIII

I will vehemently continue to argue that quality has not slipped.

The same "quality issue" nonsense was prevalent throughout the 1980s when the w126 was launched. "Too much electronics" was a common objection. Oh yes, "plastic sides."

Then there were the diesel heads (as I am one myself) that claim that things went downhill when MB started focusing on v8 gas engines (as though MB never had gas engine cars before the w123 diesel).

The w107 SL was heralded as problematic by the die hards who insisted that the w113 pagoda was superior. Things got worse when MB had the audacity to change from iron block engines to aluminum block engines! The engines were supposed to die after 100K miles.. which also never happened.. but then, the early w107 SL engines do last over 500K+ miles.

The same nonsense was again brought up when the w140 S-class was launched, which made an overall mockery of the w126 in terms of comfort, handling and styling.

The wR230 SL makes the w129 SL not just look antiquated, but also insipid. It makes the w129 look like pornography versus the real thing.

MBs have continually improved over the years. IMHO, quality has not slipped. I'm not some newbie MB owner. I've owned MBs since the mid-70s. I have old ones (back to the 50s) and I have 2000s cars.

Whether Schremp was right in purchasing Chrysler and Mitsubishi is a whole other issue. I am full-blooded American, and yet as a former shareholder of Daimler-Benz, I voted against the "merger" (yeah right). If I had any say, I would ditch Chrysler as well and let it rot. Who gives a $hit about stupid, ugly American cars anyway.

Well, my data isn't based on heresay or opinions from diehards when a car was replaced by a newer one.

My data is based on in-depth conversations with dealership and independent technician friends, and seeing the cars that are at the MB Credit auctions.

Cars are being returned with 10,000 miles on them due to "check engine" lights constantly on, flexible service system malfunctions, and just a ton of other electronic glitches.

The dealerships employ technicians (oops, I mean parts replacers as few have any true mechanical skills anymore) on a flat-rate system, which artificially puts pressure on the techs to get as many cars in and out of the service bays as possible, whether the problems are solved or not.

The number of malfunctions that are happening today, not to mention the breadth of them across the cars' systems, is staggering. The entire MB dealer system is bending under the weight of all of this. Warranty parts replacements are through the roof.

All I know, is that when you talk to a factory tech over beers or such, the complaints are FAR above and beyond what you used to hear in the past. These guys are under some SERIOUS pressure and the product (not to mention the MB system) does not make their lives easier. Cars such as the W211, which was supposed to be the "end all" to replace the problem-ridden W210, are rapidly proving to be worse.

These are not my words. These are the words of the guys who know, and work on, the cars day in and day out.

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. Looking at the choices of the most knowledgeable people can tell one a lot. Just ask any knowledgeable dealership or indy mechanic about which cars they believe are/were the best that MB ever made. You will hear things like W126 and W123. Many many many MB techs still drive things like W114/115 and W123 cars, generally diesels.

Any mechanic will tell you that there is no comparison between the engineering/quality of a W126 and a W140. Sure the 140 is more comfortable, but at the cost of major reliability and component quality issues.

My indy shop has an armored W140 S600 in right now. It needs two throttle actuator/injection control units costing around $3,000 -- EACH. (Everything on a V12 is duplicated). Plus labor to get at them. Wiring harness problems in each of them -- crumbly insulation. Plus the main wiring harness is bad. We're talking nearly $10,000 for some simple repairs, for a top-of-the-line car with nary 75,000 miles on it. A few months ago, one of the front coil springs...snapped in half, like a piece of spaghetti. Because of the extra weight of the factory armoring. Engineering problem? Quality problem? Or both?

In your post you repeatly mention styling and looks.

Who cares?

People who place emphasis on styling and "looks" have less credibility in my opinion.

Not trying to insult, or flame, just stating my opinion no better or worse than anyone else.

I believe that the subject of "quality" is relative.

Modern Mercedes-Benz products have many trade-offs built into them. The certain level of "robustness" has been deminished in favour of improved fuel economy, faster acceleration and improved emergency lane changing ability and the like...

Technology has also seemed to be able to replace the "overbuild" philosphy in the newer cars. Engines can reach operating temperature more quickly, emissions systems have improved etc... all with lighter weight which some people value.

It seems though, the advent of the extreme increase of the technologic advancements in these cars come at the price of the special intangible assests/qualities like "character" and feel and impression.

I hope everyone will go out now for a drive and compare with other cars out in traffic. I think most of us will feel good (ML owners probably not LOL)

__________________
1989 300CE - 269,000 km
1994 SL600 - 59,000 km

For styling, its simple really(they all look good, though). The old 108/109's were the prettiest, then the W116, then the W126, then the W220, then the W140.

Long term durability/reliability? Very close between W116/W126, W108/109, W140, W220.

Cars likely to last decades with normal daily driving, and normal maintanence? W126, W116(only reason W126 is ahead is because of the rust issues), 108/109, W140, and lastly W220.

Handling?
W220, W140, W126, W116, W108/W109. W126 and W116 have really impressive handling, but only until they get up to speed. Around town, they are boats.

The older Benzes used the highest quality materials available, and were each handmade. When the W116 came into production, they were no longer completely handmade(around '71).

When the W116/W126 era showed up, the focus was on economy and performance(sound familiar?). Materials had to be lighter than in previous cars(high quality plastic), but the exterior was still breathtakingly Benz.

The W140 introduced an overly complex car, and experiment by MB if you will. It was desigined with more a more "eco-friendly" interior and was similar to its W124 smaller cousin in exterior looks. It was essentially a "fat E-Class". The body was solid as a rock, and the overall quality was still there in fit + finish.

The W220, has always been remarked as one of the more beautiful cars MB has produced. And it is. The flaws with this car, are the poor fit and finish, and again, overly complex COMAND system with a manual that had more pages in it than a good novel.

What I post here is what I have gathered from others. These are the S-Class models.

It's a common misconception that the 108 and 109 cars were "handmade". In reality they were quite largely mass-produced, though the 111 and 112 cars from the same era employed quite a bit more true "hand-craftsmanship" than the assembly-line 108 and 109 cars.

It is true that there was still a very high proportion of line and QC inspectors to car assemblers during the production of these cars. You can see this by the little paint marks on the various bolt heads all over the cars, where the paint was daubed on the bolt heads after the torque settings and other QC checks were performed by the inspectors.

I believe that the 126 cars actually retained the solidity, quality and great materials of the earlier cars (not to mention overengineering). They were designed with economy and mass-production efficiency in part, but the actual materials were still of a very high quality. and the engineering of the chassis ensures that the 126 is stiffer and better engineered than the earlier cars. And you mention rust. Rust is NOT NEARLY the factor of what it is on the 108 and 116 cars. About 90+% of those cars that I see, have rust. 126s, though newer, have FAR less rust.

IanMB is definitely correct though, that the more modern cars are cushier, better-engineered as far as ergonomics are concerned, better handling, and overall more competent cars. To many people, this denotes higher quality.

But to some, it's what's UNDERNEATH that really counts, not softer seats or stiffer handling. You see little tweaks and engineering decisions made over the years, that make you wonder. I'm talking about things like the move from recirculating ball to rack & pinion steering, the move to MacPherson front suspension, the move away from ultrasmooth inline-6 engines to the modular (ie significantly cheaper to produce) V-6 for the 1998 model year, the move from thicker hard hides to thinner soft hides, high-quality dashboard plastics to stuff that's Honda Civic quality, reducing the quantity of wood in the car, and so forth. These decisions are what i mean by quality. It's the engineering trade-offs that are driven by cost savings.

Cheers,
Gerry

Cheers everyone.

Gerry, I have a 1971 300SEL 6.3 myself. My wife has a 1968 280SE cabriolet. They sure are pretty cars. Even then, like I said, if the old cars are so superior, then why is the M100 600 such a PITA? My philosophy is that all MBs are great cars (well, I don't know about M class or SLKs). We should just enjoy whatever we have.

Does anyone know of a 400+ CID engine thats not a pain?

I dunno if the new ones have real poor quality, but its not as good as it is in the older cars. They are super frikkin kool, And under the hood, they still look solid, well engineered and such. The new E500 engine bay looks nearly Identical to the old W124 E500. I looked at the inside and it doesnt look all that cheap. I think Peter Fearing said it sometime in another thread that people who buy new Mercedes is a bunch of morons (in other words), which is probably 75 % of the problem, and I think we've all met those people. Hell fords last a million miles for some people. I just base my opinion on what I hear and what I see, becuase these newer cars haven't proven themselves yet. Until they do, they're just not as good.

BTW, when did they go to McPherson and Rack and pinion? I dont like either.... wanna know what to watch out for in case I decide to import one of them fancy new CLK DTM road cars with 550 HP......

Mercedes began using McPherson struts with the W124 and W201, only in the front. (purists call struts in the rea "Chapman" struts after thefamed Lotus engineer, Colin.)

So, that would be in about 1983 or so...

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif