Questions for Meguiar's Mike....

[ytown]

Mike,

First off, welcome aboard! You bring a lot of experience to this group.

I am a huge fan of Meguiar's. I am a big believer in the Cleaner-Wax first step (sometimes twice) followed by top coating with Gold Class. If we check back to when this board first started, I actually "debated" Lee on the abilities of Gold Class. He was at that time a professional "tan bottle" user. My 1986 300E in Smoke Silver (that I use to have) was the car that got all the attention of the abilities of Gold Class Wax having the amazing wet look. I still to this day have never seen a car look as wet as that car with Gold Class on it...I could go on and on.

A couple questions for you...

1) What do you think of Gold Class?

2) What is your best "wet look" wax in your opinion?

3) How come I never read/hear any Meguiars people talk about the one - two combo of CleanerWax and Gold Class Wax?

4) I have a 1974 450 SL that is silver with clear coat. What is the best thing I can do to make it look Concours "wet"? (It looks great, but I don't have my Smoke Silver 300E "wet look" yet!)

5) How come the more coats I put on of Gold Class, the better it looks, when the Meguiars people say layering Gold Class does nothing?

Any help you can provide would be great!

P.S. This is not a daily driver...I'm talking sunny weekends and car show driving.

Thanks
Mike Klem

[Mike Phillips]

(parts of this message were copy and pasted from another message)


A couple questions for you...

>1) What do you think of Gold Class?

From a chemist's point of view, it is Meguiar's most advanced wax formula. It is a synthetic wax, not a Carnauba-based wax. There is quite an interesting story behind Gold Class wax. I cannot really talk about it here, suffice to say, Meguiar's had this technology that they wanted to make available in a wax. The only way they could make it available was to come out with a totally new product, they couldn't just "improve" a wax they already had on the market.

I'm sure many people have looked at the many Meguiar's products available and wondered... why so many products?

Sometimes its because a specific formula is created to perform a specific task. Other times it's because of necessity, a new formula cannot be merely blended into an existing product.

Anyway, yes I like the Gold Class, it works best on finishes in excellent condition, i.e. new car, new paint job, freshly detailed or previously cleaned and polished with either a dedicated paint cleaner followed by a dedicated pure polish or a combination, cleaner/polish. The whole point is you want to apply it to a clean surface for best results in appearance and longevity. Just like a pure wax, a pure wax should never be used on a finish in less than excellent condition.

I have often wondered how many times someone has purchased the Meguiar's #16 Professional Paste Wax since 1950, used it incorrectly and then been unhappy with the results. The problem was not with the wax, but with the finish. Wrong product for the finish, typically, a product like the #6 Cleaner/wax would have been a better choice for the average Joe Consumer working on his daily driver.

>2) What is your best "wet look" wax in your opinion?

When we talk about creating a Flawless Finish with a "Wet-Look", wax can, for the most part, only improve an already flawless "base finish". Meaning, the actual surface of your finish has to be very smooth , very clean and very clear in order to produce a wet look. Wax choice is a factor, but the factor that is last in determining whether your paint will look wet or not.

Over the years, everything I have ever worked on has been what I call a "complete". That is, no one ever brings me a car in good shape, I wish. All the work I get is this type of scenario,

Typically a guy, has a car that he has a lot of money into. Something happens to the paint. He messes it up, he takes it to detailer who messes it up, or his painter messed it up in the beginning… buffer swirl.

If the finish cannot be fixed, i.e. restored to the owners expectations, (usually guys with a lot of money into their pet project, whether it is a Nash Metropolitan, or Jaguar, they want it to look like, well… like they have a lot of money into it), then it will have to be re-painted. They would prefer to fix it because of the time and expense of re-painting.

(Then your back to a catch 22 scenario, either you, a detailer or your painter messes it up)

Anyway, somehow they get my name, I look at the car, if I think I can fix it, I take the job. Because the finish has been butchered, I have to do a "complete". This almost always means, Machine cleaning the paint with a dedicated paint cleaner. I try to use Meguiar's M-0216 Fine-Cut cleaner with their W-8000 Foam polishing pad on a rotary buffer. If this isn't' remove the buffers swirl, chemical etching, or random scratches fast enough, then I will start dropping down in the abrasive scale.

Meguiar's always says,

"Use the least aggressive product to get the job done"

So you have to experiment starting with the least aggressive product first and then if you have to… work your way down. This means have an arsenal of Meguiar's product on hand which I always do.

I also, ALWAYS, to a "Test Spot" first. A test spot is where you perform each step of the entire process you plan to do to the entire car… in one spot. If you cannot make one spot look good with your prescribed process, you will not be able to make the entire surface look good. Simple really, it will also save you from making a "Mistake".

All the defects must be removed in the cleaning process. The polishing and protecting steps will only make them look, well… polished and protected.

After the machine cleaning process, I machine polish the finish using a Meguiar's Cleaner/polish, sometimes twice, sometimes two different ones sometimes with the same cleaner/polish.

After that, wipe off and inspect. What ever you have at this point is what you are going to have at the end of the process, only not as clear, dark, gloss and wet-looking.

If it looks good, I apply a coat of the Meguiar's #20 Polymer Sealant. I do this for at least two different reasons that I will not go into here.

After that I apply the first thin coat of #16 Professional Paste Wax, let cure at least one hour. Carefully wipe off and apply second coat of #16 pure wax. I let this coat dry overnight. For at least two different reasons that I won't go into here.

Next day, carefully, carefully, remove the #16 paste wax. This is very hard to do without instilling scratches because the wax dries so hard.

Once all of the wax is off, I remove all masking tape, (I tape off a car just like a painter), detail all cracks and crevices, (I hate this part), then apply a thin coat of the #7 Show Car Glaze. Carefully, ever so gently, remove the #7 pure polish. This is where a super high quality 100% cotton, terry cloth towel followed by a Micro-fiber polishing cloth really make a difference.

Do a final wipe, pull into sun to inspect, inspect inspect inspect, show to owner, clean up mess, collect money, take pictures and then go home.

All of my completes take at least two days, sometimes three. I have worked on some finishes for 4 and 5 days. But for different reasons, example, I restored the paint on a 1960 Austin Healy 3000 that was raced by Donald Healy. The first day I worked on it I filled in all of the rock chips using three different colors of paint. The car was British Racing Green, the Racing Number was Black and the background around the number was white. After touching them up, I left for a week to let the paint fully cure, i.e., harden.

Next week I cam back and lightly sanded the touch-ups and then taped off the car and started the buffing process. In this particular case, I had to let the paint harden before I wanted to sand on it and buff it out. So it took longer. Car was sold at an auction a couple of weeks later for quarter million dollars, this was back in 1992 I think.

I like Gold Class, I like Medallion I like #26 and #6, but when someone is paying me for a flawless finish, I depend on the combination of #20 and #16 to produce the kind of results that will stand up to close inspection under every imaginable lighting condition and... last and last.



>3) How come I never read/hear any Meguiar's people talk about the one - two combo of Cleaner/Wax and Gold Class Wax?

This is only my guess, but typically, if your finish needs cleaning, and you want to use Gold Class for a final wax, instead of using a cleaner wax to do the cleaning, you could probably get better results from using either a dedicated paint cleaner or a combination cleaner/polish. ScratchX is a new paint cleaner Meguiar's has come out with that is really good for such a purpose, as well as the Body Scrub.

For a cleaner polish, #83 Dual-Action Cleaner/Polish works really good as well as the #9 Swirl Remover.

Note: Many people purchase #9 Swirl Remover to remove buffer swirl in their paint by hand. This will not work. It may not even work by machine. It depends on how deep the swirl is which is determined by what Billy Bob originally instilled the buffer swirl with, i.e. wool pad an course cutting compound will instill a deeper buffer swirl than a wool pad with a machine polish. Both will instill buffer swirl, one will be deeper than the other. It is unlikely the #9 would remove the deeper buffer swirl, you would have to use a dedicated paint cleaner for this. It may remove the light swirl using the W-8000 foam polishing pad, you will never know until you try.

Point being, Buffer Swirl is a scratch in the paint, in order to remove a scratch in paint, you must remove paint. You cannot remove enough paint with the #9 Swirl Remover and make the paint look good using only your hand a wax applicator pad and your good intentions. There is not enough… "Cleaning Action" developed with your hand. You must use a rotary buffer.

(More in the next post, this was to long)

[Mike Phillips]

(Continued from the previous message)


>4) I have a 1974 450 SL that is silver with clear coat. What is the best thing I can do to make it look Concours "wet"? (It looks great, but I don't have my Smoke Silver 300E "wet look" yet!)

Is this the original paint? After you wash it, and then rub your palm across the finish is it as smooth as glass?

Without seeing it, to make any paint look "Concours" wet, the guaranteed way to do this is by machine cleaning and machine polishing the paint. You just can't develop a "polishing effect" on hard paints like clear coats by hand.

If you feel little bumps and bonded contaminants on the finish when you rub your palm across the finish, the you need to clay the finish first. Then you could try the Meguiar's ScratchX, followed by your choice of wax and the final application of the #7 Show Car Glaze.

Try to use your cleaners, polishes and protectants using straight-line motions, rub in the direction of the length of the car or the direction of the length of the panel, which ever I longer and/or makes more sense.

( I wrote this on the web back in 1991 and explained in detail why to do this instead of circular motions, now everywhere I visit I see people recommending this procedure and now I feel like I am merely jumping on the bandwagon but I did start posting "How-To's" on the Usenet newsgroups as early as 1991 on this specific subject. Considering the world wide web didn't get into the hands of the average Joe Consumer until approximately, 1995/1996 I would have to say I had already been there and done that).


>5) How come the more coats I put on of Gold Class, the better it looks, when the Meguiar's people say layering Gold Class does nothing?

You can only push so much product into the pores of your finish. The wax on the surface is for the most part wiped off. Sure you leave a microscopic layer, but if you were to actually start "Layering" you coats of wax, pretty soon you wouldn't be applying subsequent layers on top of your cars paint, but would be instead applying new layers on top of previous layer of wax, not paint.

I don't know if this is a good idea or makes sense. You want the "paint" to look gook, not a "layer of wax". Does that make sense, after enough coats you would be in essence, waxing your wax.

It's like you are trying to duplicate what the painter, (or should I say robot), did at the factory and that is to develop a film-build of clear protection over the cover coat. Only, most waxes are not as clear as clear resin, i.e. clear paint.

I believe two thin applications of anybody's product will leave behind more protection than one thick application. The most important thing about waxing a car is "how well the surface is prepared to accept the wax".

That's not to say that if you are happy with the results your getting. then by all means continue the practice. We want you to be happy. I just want to be honest about it at the same time.


I'm not sure where you live, but I will be starting a project here at Meguiar's called…

"Meguiar's Garage"

At Meguiar's Garage, we will be doing "How-To's" on any and all types of projects. Projects like your car andwhat you would like to do with your finish and things like removing a scratch in Mom's grocery getter caused by a shopping cart when she went to the store last.

I like to buff on all kinds of strange stuff so there is no real limit to what we will and will not work on.

Stay tuned, I will update you in the future as this project progresses. Right now I am busy writing the script for a new video for Meguiar's on wet-sanding, cutting and buffing.

>P.S. This is not a daily driver...I'm talking sunny weekends and car show driving.

Thanks
Mike Klem

[suginami]

Mike, I'm having trouble following the #16's, #30's, etc., and figuring out or remembering what the products are.

Can you post a listing of the Meguir's products and what the numbers stand for for future reference?

I'm assuming all of the numbered products are the ones in the tan colored bottles.

I know the regular cosumer-oriented paint scrub, polish, and cleaner wax, come in a red bottle; and the gold class comes in black bottles.

Thanks for your input. I'm really enjoying your detailing recommendations. I never considered using the polymer sealant and them applying a coat of wax over it. Sounds interesting.

[Mike Phillips]

I have been working on a "How-To" book for a number of years now.

It is completely AR on the subject. More than anything you will ever read, I guarantee it.

I drive my wife absolutely nuts with the degree in which I cover all aspects of "touching" your cars paint. Fiberglas Gel-coats, Clear plastics, both rigid and flexible, glass and even all of the rest of the materials and componants that make up a car etc.

I will have a website for this how-to book as well as many other intersting things. It will $20.00 but... right now it is 300 pages in MS Word and my margins are set at .5 in all four corners.

And that's without picures.

I don't actually have as much time as I would like to have to post to both discussion forums and usenet newsgroups, at least not like I did when I used to work for Hewlett-Packard.

So if your interested, just stay tuned, word will travels fast on the net especially on the subject of "Car Wax".

I have begun ordering in every wax under the sun for my own testing and purchased the domain name... WaxWars.com

This should prove to be interesting.

I am also writing new conent pages for www.meguiars.com

Much of this stuff is from my book. Nothing is up yet, so don't flood to Meguar's website. In about 4 weeks, when Meguair's discussion board opens up, links to the content will be on the discussion board landing site.

Thanks for your interest.

If you want to be notifed when it becomes available, simply send my home e-mail address an e-mail that simply says,

I want a copy!

Mike Phillips

p.s.

All the numbers confused me too before I went to work for Meguiar's. The original cover to my book has a pictue of a guy standing in front of all the waxes in his local auto parts store, scratching his head and thinking... Which Number do I Use?

Mostly because that is how I always felt. There is actually a story about that idea in the introduction. The intro tells the story of how I ended up as a Trainer for Meguiar's and now as their writer all by basically ruining the finish on my 1948 Plymouth Coupe using the old and worn out advice of using a rubbing or polishing compound followed by a wax. Suffice to say, it started me on a quest to find a "good wax". That was back in 1977

[Mike Phillips]

Whoops, I forgot to include my home e-mail

Is this within the rules here?

If not the moderator can delete this post.

my home e-mail is...

[email protected]


Mike

[placo1]

Paul,

If you have a chance take a look at the Meguiars Website. Go to the ordering section and you'll find the various products and their description.

Here's the web page:

http://www.meguiars.com/product_showroom/showproducts_template.cfm?SrcLine=PP&SrcCat=2

Hope this helps.