Blackwater and job security

[aklim]

Originally Posted by Botnst

It would result in BS contamination of the battlefield, that's what.

B

Again, So? NIMBY

[cmac2012]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Now you're having one of those flashback thingies.

Goebbels was a member of the government. Limbaugh is not. Goebbels was paid by the state. Limbaugh is not. Goebbels was paid to make the government and leaders look good. Limbaugh is not.

Limbaugh is paid to entertain. When Limbaugh can no longer sell soap he'll be out of a job. That some people find him informative or religiously accept his pronouncements as though from God Almighty is due to the weakness of those audience members.

People have a choice whether or not to listen to Limbaugh, read the NY Times, listen to CBS, or watch the Daily show. Some are so weak-minded as to think that any of those sources is unimpeachable. Is that the NY Times' responsibility? Limbaugh's responsibility? Etc. I think you'll agree with me that people are responsible for their own choices.

To believe otherwise would mean that you believe in an aristocracy of some sort -- in which smart people should tell dumb ones how to believe. No thank you.

Partly correct. In these days of privatizing everything, the line tween govt. and private is blurred. People who want the govt. to do this or that like to sponsor Rush cause he's sort of like their lobbyist.

The '94 class of incoming freshmen in Congress made Rush an honorary member and with good reason. Mudrock, O'Reilly, Rush -- they all have much more influence on the gub-mint, indirectly, as many within the govt. Some of the lefty press also have a good deal of influence.

Rush's huge audience however, (around 30 million) tend to parrot his line and suggestions more than most others, hence the "dittohead" appellation.

[Jim B.]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Now you're having one of those flashback thingies.

Goebbels was a member of the government. Limbaugh is not. Goebbels was paid by the state. Limbaugh is not. Goebbels was paid to make the government and leaders look good. Limbaugh is not.

Limbaugh is paid to entertain. When Limbaugh can no longer sell soap he'll be out of a job. That some people find him informative or religiously accept his pronouncements as though from God Almighty is due to the weakness of those audience members.

People have a choice whether or not to listen to Limbaugh, read the NY Times, listen to CBS, or watch the Daily show. Some are so weak-minded as to think that any of those sources is unimpeachable. Is that the NY Times' responsibility? Limbaugh's responsibility? Etc. I think you'll agree with me that people are responsible for their own choices.

To believe otherwise would mean that you believe in an aristocracy of some sort -- in which smart people should tell dumb ones how to believe. No thank you.

B

That is splitting hairs, as both of them = peddlers of propaganda.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by Jim B.

That is splitting hairs, as both of them = peddlers of propaganda.

That is conflation of different professions due to political interest.

[cmac2012]

By Rod Nordland
NEWSWEEK

The colonel was furious. "Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers." He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad's Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company. Asked to address this and other allegations in this story, Blackwater spokesperson Anne Tyrrell said, "This type of gossip has led to many soap operas in the press."

Whatever else Blackwater is or isn't guilty of—a topic of intense interest in Washington—it has a well-earned reputation in Iraq for arrogance and high-handedness. Iraqis naturally have the most serious complaints; dozens have been killed by Blackwater operatives since the beginning of the war. But many American civilian and military officials in Iraq also have little sympathy for the private security company and its highly paid employees. With an uproar growing in Congress over Blackwater's alleged excesses, the North Carolina-based company is finding few supporters.

Responsible for guarding top U.S. officials in Iraq, Blackwater operatives are often accused of playing by their own rules. Unlike nearly everyone else who enters the Green Zone, said an American soldier who guards a gate, Blackwater gunmen refuse to stop and clear their weapons of live ammunition once inside. One military contractor, who spoke anonymously for fear of retribution in his industry, recounted the story of a Blackwater operative who answered a Marine officer's order to put his pistol on safety when entering a base post office by saying, "This is my safety," and wiggling his trigger finger in the air. "Their attitude was, 'We're f–––ing security; we don't have to answer to anybody'."

Congress disagrees. Until now, private security contractors working for the State Department, as Blackwater does, have effectively not been covered by either U.S. or Iraqi law, or military regulations. A bill that overwhelmingly passed the House last week would close that loophole. But the law would also require the FBI to establish a large-scale presence in Iraq in order to investigate accusations against private contractors. Law-enforcement officials worry that this would draw valuable resources away from FBI efforts to combat terrorism in the United States. Also, whenever FBI agents venture into Iraq now they are guarded by … Blackwater operatives. The bureau has sent a team to Baghdad to investigate the Sept. 16 shooting in Nasoor Square, in which Blackwater guards are accused of killing as many as 17 Iraqi civilians. In order to avoid "even the appearance of any conflict [of interest]," according to an FBI spokesman, the agents will be defended by U.S. government personnel.

It is not an idle concern. Blackwater's staunchest defenders tend to be found among those whom they guard. U.S. officials prefer Blackwater and other private security bodyguards because they regard them as more highly trained than military guards, who are often reservists from MP units. A U.S. Embassy staffer, who did not have permission to speak on the record, said, "It's a few bad eggs that seem to be spoiling the bunch." Late last week the State Department announced that it would increase oversight of Blackwater in particular, installing cameras in its vehicles and having a Diplomatic Security Service officer ride along on every convoy. But another State Department official, also speaking anonymously, says that DSS agents in Baghdad have not been eager to rein in the contractors in the past: "These guys tend to close ranks. It's like the blue wall."

Testifying before Congress last week, 38-year-old Blackwater chief Erik Prince vigorously defended his company's "dedicated security professionals" who "risk their lives to protect Americans in harm's way overseas." Prince probably had no reason to be as smug as he seemed to many observers. In deflecting questions about a drunken Blackwater operative who allegedly shot and killed a bodyguard for Iraqi Vice President Adel Abdul Mahdi in the Green Zone on Christmas Eve last year, Prince said that the employee, later identified as Andrew Moonen, had been fined and fired. But on Friday House Oversight Committee chairman Rep. Henry Waxman released a letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice recounting evidence that Moonen was able to return to Iraq and worked there for another company. Moonen's attorney, Stewart Riley, told NEWSWEEK his client denies wrongdoing and is not facing criminal charges. Blackwater is no doubt in for further fire fights.

[cmac2012]

Originally Posted by Botnst

That is conflation of different professions due to political interest.

Whatever, Limbaugh is pushing propo that affects voters and it serves very specific political interests.

His latest gaffe went way over the line. I've seen the video of his making these remarks on air:

Limbaugh: "But there was a cover story on me coming out of one of the big news magazines, and it was going to totally mischaracterize me and what I do and how I do it. And we found out who was writing it and made a couple phone calls to the person writing it. And we said, "You know what? We're going to find out where your kids go to school. We're going to find out who you knocked up in high school. We're going to find out what drugs you used. We're going to find out where you go to drink and do -- we're gonna find out how you paid for your house. We're going to do -- and we're going to do exact -- and we're going to say that, you know what? You are no different than Al Goldstein. You both masturbate."

I don't have kids (yet). But I know that them there's fighting words. Only a punk would resort to such nonsense.

Sort of like the time (the definitive portrait of the man's character) when, in the early 90s, on his short lived TV show, he put up a picture of Socks saying "this is the Clinton's cat." Then he said "this is the Clinton's dog," and up pops a picture of 13 year old Chelsea.

Then when people howled "Fowl!" the fat fool had the audacity to say a studio tech put up the wrong picture. Al Franken had an argument once with Hannity in FOX's green room about AF's book title, "RL is a big, fat idiot." Franken pointed out that it was a joke, cuz Limbaugh pulls similar ad hominems all the time. Hannity said "name one" Franken said "does Chelsea Clinton count?"

Hannity, joining hands in slime with Rush, said, "Rush has explained that, it was a mistake . . ." etc.

Franken asked "OK, what picture was supposed to come up? The Clinton's didn't have a White House dog at the time." (Buddy came years later)

As Franken tells it, Alan Colmes chimed in with "Yeah, what picture was it that was supposed to have been put up?"

Hannity and Limbaugh. What a pair. First Limbag has the gall to pull such a joke and then doesn't have the balls to own up to or apologize for it and there's aggressively incurious Hannity, backing him to the hilt.

[Jim B.]

^^^^So, if you had a cask of fine vintage wine, and you saw someon p!ss in it, would you still want to drink it, after that?

Well, that is kind of what has happened here, it seems.

The whole ball of wax is going down the drain.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by Jim B.

^^^^So, if you had a cask of fine vintage wine, and you saw someon p!ss in it, would you still want to drink it, after that?

Well, that is kind of what has happened here, it seems.

The whole ball of wax is going down the drain.

Even if a mixed metaphor sings in should be derailed.

[t walgamuth]

I heard yesterday that Blackwater was being brought home from Iraq.

Tom W

[Botnst]

I read that on AP, I think.

[t walgamuth]

It could be an overreaction, but there needs to be oversight of the military. It is specified in the constitution for a good reason.

Checks and balances actually work, when they are used.

This is a perfect example of what happens when the Checks and balances system breaks down.

Disarming army troops! Yipes!, the arrogance.

Tom W

[Medmech]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

It could be an overreaction, but there needs to be oversight of the military. It is specified in the constitution for a good reason.

Checks and balances actually work, when they are used.

This is a perfect example of what happens when the Checks and balances system breaks down.

Disarming army troops! Yipes!, the arrogance.

Tom W

I couldn't have said it better myself. Friends on the ground in Iraq had the same complaint; that being some BW employees were ignoring the military order and in some cases putting....and sometiimes firing on allied soldiers.

[t walgamuth]

thanks, man.

Tom W

[Medmech]

Blackwater has been romanticized since the beginning of the war amongst almost everyone that has no idea what its role is/was intended to be. At the beginning it filled a retirement gap for retired SF personal and did its job well. Once supply and demand kicked in the quality of personal dropped and the BW leadership did a poor job of maintaining order within it ranks so the cowboy mentality manifested itself to the point that the BW personal believed and acted as if they had more authority than the military personal that they were supposed to be helping. BW was hiring former South African mercenaries looking for work since the Executive Outcomes aftermath which did not help the situation.

Blackwater may be gone but there are hundreds of other PMC's ready to assume its role; lets hope that they don't make the same mistakes.

[cmac2012]

What's this? Not one military-ophile noting the bizarre incident of Blackwater guys holding US troops on the ground at gunpoint??!

I saw Eric Prince on TV in front of Congress. Didn't care for his smug smirkiness. Dude thinks he's untouchable.

I worked with a former Sea Bee on one of my jobs. What a pompous ass. Had to try to stop the guy from making major errors all the time. The foreman was a former Army Specialist and he was in love with this guy's Sea Bee pedigree. Dude was 10 - 12 years younger than me, some of his training was worthwhile but the guy a loose cannon.

One day, we were dealing with a $27,000 Zelluck door from NY, one of about 10, the thing was a total prehung package, about 7' by 12', with big retracting screen, the works. It had a sort of foot extending out, imagine a 7 foot guy in profile with his feet sticking out like normal. We had to turn it face down to adjust something and he screwed 2x6 blocks, about 8 inches long on both ends and said OK guys, let flip it down.

Me and Manny, the best little Mexican finish carpenter I'd met, said "Whoa, whoa, whoa!" I just knew that door was too heavy to do it like that. The screws can't make up for the poor leverage. Manny grabs a 3 foot long 2x4 and holds it up like it should be put in as a strut, from the tip of the "foot" up to to the side of the door. I'm all "hell yes, that's exactly it," I was going to go for a drill to pre-drill so the 2x4 wouldn't split but Sea Bee boy wouldn't hear of it, starts to flip it over. The damn foot didn't move as the door moved away from perpendicular, we could hear cracking and about 4 guys pull out the "Whoa, whoa, whoa!" routine. Finally Sea Bee boy was restrained long enough to do it right -- (oh golly, we can't use up 10 minutes just to safeguard a $27K door) -- we got it down and fortunately the cracking was not too severe.

Several other bone-headed events like that, such as the time he used a big electric impact driver to push a 5/8 lag screw through a 2x6 plate to mount a steel eyebrow window support. I'm all "dude, we got to pre-drill that." But no, he was a Sea Bee and proceeds to split the hell out of the thing with his monster lag screw.

Pea brain of a pin head of an idiot. I got in his face hard after the expensive door F-U, in private, of course.

So what, you might say? I got the same damn attitude from Seal from on high Prince, using my patented alum. foil technology.