I've been using a topsider to change oil. I have wondered if I am leaving a lot (or a little) junk in the oil pan simply because the oil drain plug is not removed. I am concerned that the topsider oil change might not be such a good idea, even though it is much easier and cleaner. Any thoughts?

David,

Sherman, Texas, you're almost a next door neighbor, I live on the river North of Honey Grove.

There has been discussion and a little controversy on this Forum regarding the Topsider.

If you have your oil changed at the dealer, this is the method they use. If you change oil often, you can probably get by with this.

The main reason you change the oil to begin with is that it is the only method you have for cleaning the inside of the engine. If you leave a little dirty oil in the engine, this is equivalent to driving more miles between changes.

If you hang around Mshop much you'll find that I'm an absolute maniac regarding oil changes. I drain oil usually on Friday night after driving home from Richardson. The engine is as warm as it will get. I pull the plug and let it drain overnight. Draining the oil hot gets out more contaminants because they are churned up and suspended in the oil. Draining it overnight allows the sludge to come out. The last drops that come out are the dirtiest.

I believe that my method is as thorough of a crankcase cleaning as you can get. If I were to go to the topsider method, I would change my oil more frequently to make up for leaving a small amount of sludge in the crankcase. I believe that if you were to change your interval to about 2/3 of what you would use if doing a thorough oil and filter change, you could get by with the topsider just fine.

Beware of extended oil change intervals. A pro tech on this Forum indicated that they were seeing sludge in some engines that were seeing oil changes whenever the FSS system indicated. I would change oil more frequently if this is a car that you plan to keep for some time.

Good luck,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

The Topsider is awesome! Larry makes a good point that it can leave some in the bottom. However, I think changing the filter each time will take care of this. Unless you have a lift or a pit to do these things safely, I think this is the best way to go. Cheers, Andrew Seidel.

------------------
89 190E 2.6
86 560SEC!
83 300TD Turbo
75 240D

These guys got me to change my oil more often using the topside method. I love the method. I am not a mechanic but it only takes me about 30 minutes to do the whole procedure between dealer services. These guys are the best.

Paul
1999 E300TD 40000 miles

A fresh oil filter is definitely necessary, if for no other reason than you leave dirty oil in the system if you don't change the filter.

But, changing the oil filter will not take care of the sludge problem. Sludge is varnish, goo and such, that is not captured by the oil filter.

Please, if you insist on using the topsider method, do yourself and your engine a favor. Change your oil AND filter more frequently to make up for it. And regardless of your method, remove the oil while it is HOT. This way you will remove much more of the contamination from the engine, because it is churned up and suspended in the oil.

As far as no jackstands, lifts and other safety equipment go, I use four items to change oil from underneath; drain plug wrench, oil filter wrench, drain pan and paper towels. I do not raise my car when changing oil. Obviously, I have to go inside and change to my nasty clothes, so maybe that's another item.

I pour the oil from the drain pan into one gallon jugs that my oil comes in. I then take it by AutoZone where they accept it, and I assume recycle it.

With all this said, if you use the topsider, I understand, but you can buy a wrench that fits the drain plug, an oil filter wrench, if you need it for your model and a drainpan, much cheaper than you can buy a topsider. It also lets you go further between these bottom side thorough oil changes, saving you more money.

If convenience is worth the money, enjoy your topsider and change it more often.

Best of luck,
Change oil hot and change oil often,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

Larry,
Just a suggestion, but you should put your favorite phrase, "change it hot, change it often" at the bottom of your signature line. :D It would keep you from typing it so much...... :)

------------------
William
76 240D (W115) - 555K miles
78 300D (W123) - 200K+ miles -- SOLD

We had this discussioin on that other mercedes mailing list a few years ago. To settle the question of topsider vs. drain plug, George Murphy actually performed some experiments to gather empirical data. For those of you not familiar with him, George is one of two or three main technical advisors to the Mercedes Benz Club of America. Apart from the politics of that organization, he really knows these cars.

What George did was mount the oil pan - I believe it was from a 123 300D - and fill it with water. He then drained it using the plug, and measured the remaining water. He then repeated, using a topsider down the dipstick tube. (All MBs for the last 20+ years have a dipstick tube which extends all the way to the bottom of the oil pan.)

I can't recall the exact values, but the topsider was *more* effective than the drain plug, leaving about half as much fluid in the pan. I believe the values were something like 300ml for the drain plug, 150ml for the topsider.

This should not be a surprising result. MB designs their cars to be changed using the topside method, and in fact this is the recommended factory procedure, according to Mr. Murphy.

There's certainly nothing wrong with Larry's overnite method, but I'd wager that 15 minutes with a topsider would extract more old oil. The key, of course, is to change the oil while it is *hot*. No arguement there.

Don't forget that a liter or so of old oil always remains in the oil cooler, and you can't change it out. Hence getting that last 100ml out of the oil pan doesn't mean you got rid of all the old oil.

Enough preaching for now. I can dig up the citations for George's experiment if anyone cares - the list is archived.

Larry - you commute from Richardson to Honey Grove? You are nuts!

- JCY

JCY,

I have chosen to raise my kids in the fresh air away from Plano, and Arlington. They're worth every mile of it. I moved out where I am now from Arlington when my oldest was in the first grade. I can't think of anything better that I could have done for them.

I guess if we used water in our crankcases, Georges test would have been valid. I use oil in mine.

I have been a member of the MBCA for over five years and enjoy their publication very much. However, it doesn't take too much to see who the publication is loyal to. If they need an article to support their dealers topsider practice, I'm sure they have no trouble getting it.

In the case of oil in a crankcase instead of water, oil clings to everything. If you suck with the topsider for fifteen minutes vs. pull the drain plug for fifteen minutes, I expect that you would get about the same amount of liquid out. What the overnight drain does, is let the oil that is clinging to everything come out, or quite alot of it. Buried in one of my replies somewhere, I mentioned that a good way for the home mechanic to use a topsider, would be to suck for fifteen minutes immediately after shutting the thorougly warmed up engine off. Then suck some more the next morning. This way you would allow alot of the sludge to come off of everything.

Additionally, if you will reread my earlier replies in this thread, you will see that I am not against using a topsider, I just believe that you need to change a little more frequently if you decide to take advantage of the convenience.

Better yet, if you're not planning on keeping your car for the long term, use the topsider about every 10K and forget it. All my comments about oil change are aimed at those who want absolutely maximum engine life.

Thanks and have a great day,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

I think either method is fine. mer personally, I like larry's whole drain it hot and often comment, and the overnight draining. My car is running much much better since I did that.

personally I go one step further than larry and jack up the right side of the car further helping the oil drain out the plug.

Regardless of oil staying in parts of the engine, changing it more often will at some point clean out that extra dirty oil that stays, or dilute it with enough fresh oil for it to work its way out of the system more..

I plan on changing my oil every 3000 to 3500 miles. Personally I want my car to last, and after my poor habits with my old car, its definately something I want to get in the habit of doing.

In fact I changed the oil in my old car just before I changed the oil in the benz. I'm ashamed to say how bad the oil in my other car was, as I dont think I really got it changed much at all. lets just say I've seen coca cola with more viscosity than the oil that was in my old car...

Of course the old car is a jeep, has been sunken in a mud puddle, and has towed a 5500 lb boat on several occasions. the only problems with the car is the tranny, slips in a couple of gears like reverse if ya hit the gas too hard, or if you downshift into lets say 3rd at speed. other than that the car actually drives fine, though the brakes are in no way that good, especially after driving a benz I wonder how I ever got that damn jeep to stop. :) LOL

so based on the way that car is, and I did a good 70k miles on it since I had it, I dont want my benz to get like that so frequent oil and other fluid changes will be my thing.

I'm thinking of changing the tranny fluid and filter soon. is this a diy job or should I have it done by a "pro" i hate messing with gaskets and gasket sealants. I usually end up getting it either all over where its not supposed to be, or all over me....
alon


------------------
'92 300CE
Metallic Black (Blue Flaked) on Parchment
Clear Corners
94-95 Tail-Lights
Black Grille Insert
78.5k Miles

Future Upgrades:
Sportline Suspension
17" AMG Monoblocks or EVO II's
Euro Headlights
Performance Chip
AMG Exhaust
http://home.earthlink.net/~asherson/my92300ce.jpg
Click here to Go To My 300CE Page

Ash the trans filter/fluid is a diy if you have everything you need to enable you to get underneath it. You will need to remove the plugs to rotate the engine (use the bolt on the crank pulley) to get the torque converter drain plug into position for removal/replacement. Make sure you use the trusty old torque wrench when tightening everything up and you need to have a clean area to work in. Try to keep everything spotless.
good luck
engatwork
'95 E320
'97 Honda CRV

thanks, For me I would say its not DIY, if I have to start lining up things to drain it.. hehe I think I'd rather pay my mechanic to do that. I don't wanna mess anything up. I don't mind the little things.. hehe plugs wires etc etc. its the big things I'm afraid to attempt..

Alon

------------------
'92 300CE
Metallic Black (Blue Flaked) on Parchment
Clear Corners
94-95 Tail-Lights
Debadged
Black Grille Insert
78.5k Miles

Future Upgrades:
Sportline Suspension
17" AMG Monoblocks or EVO II's
Euro Headlights
Performance Chip
AMG Exhaust
http://home.earthlink.net/~asherson/my92300ce.jpg
Click here to Go To My 300CE Page

I'm a bit disappointed in that response, Larry. You waved your hands and dismissed everything, but didn't offer any rationale, logic, or evidence to support your points. I'm afraid that despite your guru status in this forum, I don't find unsupported arguments very convincing.

I've used both the drain plug and topside methods on several of my mercedes - 123, 124, and 210 chassis models. After using the topside method, I've had to add noticably more oil to bring them up to the full mark vs. using the drain plug method. Hence I contend that the topside approach is quite thorough. My experience, empirically determined, I might add, is that it certainly removes more oil than draining for 20 - 30 minutes.

Have you ever determined the additional benefit of your overnight drain versus, say, 20 minutes? How much additional oil is removed in that extra 12 hours?

To add more wood to the fire...Why would the engineers at MB approved the "sucking" method? Would anybody recommend an engine flush/cleaning fluid with any of these methods?


------------------
J.H.
'86 300E

I would like to add some Oil to that fire. :D hehe

I for one dread the thought of crawling under the car to change anything after DIY'ing for 15 years, escecially during the winter months. That said, I tend to go for the easier way of doing things and prefer the Topsider. But before we start taking sides, let me just add my own observation.

The second time I used the Topsider I did a drain with the plug out and let the car sit for over a hour. By that time a drip took over a minute to cycle, with the oil hot. After that hour, I used the Topsider to see if I could scavenge anything else still in the pan. I was able to extract about 2oz. of "rich", dark, creamy CRUD, but only while continuously pumping for about 2-3 minutes, topsider happily gurgling away. I figured I needed the excercise anyway and was just curious anyway. I was surprised, the viscosity of the oil was working in the Topsiders favor.

Moral of the story? Two is better than One! FSO (Flame Suit On)!

BTW, does anybody know of a large, wheeled container to store the used oil, say 10 gallons or so? Going to the Recycler's site is getting annoying, plus I'm getting lazy.

There is one more possible solution i have not seen mentioned yet. Try rigging a disposable shop vac to a hose at the bottom of the oil dip stick! Now there is an idea!



------------------
Ross Newcomb
96 C280, Greenish Black

Ross,

I have had the same experience with the topsider. I also keep pumping with the unit gurgling away for about 10 minutes. I then let the car sit for about 30 minutes (just to make sure I get as much old oil as possible into the bottom of the pan, and then go back with the topsider and suck out anything that is left.
With the topsider or any method, changing hot and often (as Larry says) is essential for long engine life.

I keep the used oil in old 5 gallon paint containers (the plastic ones)
If you want something really big, get an empty 50 gallon oil drum (and also buy a wheeler to move it when it is full)
To lift it to a truck, well, eat 45 bowls of Wheaties in the morning.

Evidently, folks are responding to my controversial post without reading it thoroughly.

I am not opposed to the topsider. My whole point is that oil and crud cling to everything inside the engine and take quite a while to come down to the pan, so it can be extracted either with a topsider or by removing the drain plug.

If you were to topside while hot, then let it sit overnight then topside in the morning, I believe that this would do a pretty good job.

Even if you topside for a few minutes and put everything back together, the fresh oil will dissolve much of this crud that must come out. But, why not get as much out as possible before refilling it.

I noticed a post by a pro tech who indicated that they were seeing sludge in a few engines that have oil changes with dino oil only when the FSS alarm indicates. I have a suspicion about this. I would really be curious to know if these engines are being topsided in the techs bay, after they sat on the lot long enough for the oil to cool off. I contend that if my suspicion is correct, and I have no way of knowing if it is, topsiding these engines as soon as the customer drops them off, may very well pull out extra contaminants that are suspended in the oil, before they have a chance to cling.

roas, provided us some good insight here. He indicated that after topsiding the engine adequately then waiting a period of time, he was able to get a measurable amount of additional oil out. Had he pulled the drain plug, I'm sure that this oil would have come out as well. What he determined was that more oil will come down from above, given the time to do so.

For 90% or more, probably much more, like 98% of the new MB customers. Topsiding the oil when the FSS light says so, will take the engine further than the new MB buyer cares to drive the car. I have no idea how much additional mileage may be capable, by more thorough and frequent oil changes. But I feel very confident that there is additional engine life to be had.

I do believe that used properly and with the right frequency, the topsider has the capability to take your engine as far as my oil change method. What I have great trouble believing, is that a topsider can take out more oil than removing the drain plug and letting it drain for an EXTENDED period of time. There may be a FEW models that have unusually shaped oil pans in which this may be the case. If so, this is almost a nonissue anyway. The important point is not which method gets out the most oil. The point is to drain(or topside) it hot and then continue to get the last bit out. This last bit is the REAL sludge and crud that you really want out of the engine. The alternative, is to change it more often, to dissolve it out with fresh oil more often.

Although I probably did not articulate it very well, I still say that the water test was a waste of time. Again, the issue is not getting the oil that's in the pan, out of the pan. The issue is getting the oil that's sludgy and clinging everywhere out of the engine. You chose your method to do this, either frequent oil changes or thorough, hot oil changes. Your choice. The third choice, of course, is the one that 90+% of the new MB owners chose, enjoy it, then get rid of it.

Again my only personal unscientific data I have to offer, is 380,000 miles out of the same engine using my hot, overnight, frequent drain.

Good luck,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

What a minute,

When I read Roas' post, I understood that the oil plug was removed, and the oil was taking an hour or so for a drop of it to fall out, and then he put the topsider in, and got 2-3 ounces of oil out.

Now my question is, is waiting 12 hours going to get those 2-3 ounces out at 1 drop an hour, (especially since the oil will have cooled down dramatically 3 hours after the motor is shut off)

Now I'm far from a genious, but I suspect 2-3 ounces is much more then the 12 or 20 drops that will seep out overnight.

So based on Roas' evidence, I'm beginning to think that LB has been leaving his car parked overnight with the oil plug out, only to have left an ounce mabye of dirty oil in his car. And they still lasted a long time, even though he refused to get that last bit out with the Topsider :)

oh, dread the thought

Russ

As I said, ther may be some models with a pan configuration that would keep a little in the bottom even with the plug out. I've seen the inside of a 123 pan and know that this could not be true with that model.

Also as I said, I'm not against the topsider, the main thing is that you use it again after the oil has had a whil to make it down, don't do a ten minute suck after the engine is cold. You're leaving too much clinging to everything.

Good luck,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

Hey, this is getting fun!

I think Larry nailed it on the second post. It doesn't matter what method you use to change the oil, and I don't believe it matter s if one removes an additional 100ml of used oil. Simply getting the maintenance done on time and well is the only secret.

A little math :) A typical MB engine contains about 8500ml of oil. If draining out the plug leaves 200ml in the pan, that means about 98% of the old oil has been removed. Assuming the topsider is more efficient and leaves only 100ml in the pan, that means 99% of the oil oil has been removed. Technically better, but does anyone believe that getting 1% more old oil out is going to noticably affect engine life? Especially in a well maintained engine? I don't

Oh, BTW, I use the oil-drain-plug method. Haven't gotten around to purchasing a topsider yet...

Removing 98% of the oil is okay, as long as it's the right 98%. If I let the 2% that contains the sludge that would be clinging if I did a cold oil change, I've done a good oil change. If the 2% I leave behind is the cold sludge clinging everywhere, I could have done a much more thorough oil change. Draining it hot is the key to this one.

Yes you do need to do your oil change on time. The question is what constitutes "on time"? If you are not draining hot, and relying only on the fresh oil to get the sludge out, you're going to have to change the oil more often.

The underlying principle is this: Your engine produces a certain amount of contamination over time. The only way you have to get rid of the contamination is to drain the oil. If you're not getting enough contamination out when you change the oil, you need to drain the sludge out more thoroughly or drain the oil more often. e.g. if you make 10 units of sludge in 3,000 miles and you only drain out 9 units of sludge, then you have 11 units of sludge to get out at the next 3,000 mile oil change. If you drained out 9 units then, you'd have 12 units of sludge to get out at the next one,...... If you went 2,000 miles, you'd only have 6.6 units of sludge to get out. Does this make sense?

Thanks and have a great day,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

I have to wade in with my 2 cents:

I use the Topsider on my twin engine boat (drain plugs inaccessible to any human taller than 8".) It's discouraging to see how much dirty oil is left on the dipstick even after changing the filter and working like crazy to get the last drops. After seeing the results with my boat, I would NEVER use it exclusively on my 560SL.

With the investment we have in our Mercedes-Benz autos, I'd think you'd want to get under the car and drain every last drop of sludge...so, if you're getting sludge with the topsider that you aren't draining with the drip method, maybe it's time to head to the garage and have the oil pan removed, cleaned and re-installed.

Now...is <that> anal enough for you?

Again, only my humble opinion.

------------------
Tom

'87 560 SL

[This message has been edited by tahodgson (edited 11-08-2000).]

Tom,

It's probably difficult to find a time with a boat when the engine is completely warmed up. But if you will try use the topsider just after shutting off the thoroughly warmed up engine, I expect that it would help.

Thanks for the insight,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles

An important part of this equation was touched on but not explored, and that is the oilpan design.
If by design, the low spot of the pan is where the dipstick goes ( and therefore the topsider tube), then this would lead to the fact of getting more oil out (all else being equal, like oil temp at change and going back and getting those last few ounces) with the topsider.
If however, the drain plug is the low spot, then you will most likely get more oil out by removing the plug.
I have not seen all of the MB oil pans so I cannot commnet on what model has what. I know that most North American engines have the drain plug as the low spot, and usually by a fair margin.

If by design, MB has dcided that they will use a topsider method, then they may very well have made the oilpan to accomodate properly.

Just a thought.

This what I think. Take of it what you want. I do not doubt that using the top sider is better IF and only IF you only have aboout 30 minutes to change the oil. I suspect that is why the dealer do it this way.

Like Larry said, oil is very clingy. It takes a while for it to travel down. So, unless you topside at night and then topside in the morning, Larry's method I believe is the best method. After all, the dealer is not going to leave a bunch of cars overnight to get the oil out.

my 2 cents...

OK. So, what about the engine flush? Good or bad?

------------------
J.H.
'86 300E

Boy, somebody got it right, this really is fun!

To bad we don't have a Engineer from Mercedes to really ignite this topic! Anybody know any employee's there? Hehe

Larry, to bad they don't make a quick disconnect Oil Pan! Now that would settle it! Also, have you looked at the drain plug with the pan off, curious if the openning really allows a complete drain or if it has a sort of lip while sitting level? The point about jacking the car really makes sense as well, I do this when draining by plug.

I also agree that the Oil Drain test doesn't make sense with water? Complete difference in viscosity, and that is one of the main importances of Oil in the first place, IMHO.

Trent,
I will go with the 5 gallon idea, the drum seems a little big! Can you say 500+ pounds, Ouch!

One last point I haven't seen elsewhere. Since this whole discussion really revoles around engine longevity, has anyone come across a oil prime(?) pump to build pressure before the internals actually start moving at startup? We all know that almost all the wear a engine will see is during startup, stand to reason that such a device could extend long life even further (especially in the winter!)? Just a thought.

Ross

------------------
Ross Newcomb
96 C280, Greenish Black

There are kits available that prime the oiling system before starting. I thought about this at one time and was very close to building one for my 240D.

Then a wise friend pointed out that engines almost always go down with UPPER END problems, not lower end. This does not alleviate the need for oil changes, because cylinders and valve train components require clean oil too, but they typically get it anyway.

I'm not saying the prime system would be a waste, it certainly couldn't hurt. But it would probably not extend the engine life before you have to tear it down. The engines I've torn down in my life that were high mileage and worn out, typically had bad cylinders, rings, and/or valves. The bearings usually looked pretty good.

If you really are going to just keep rebuilding an engine and keep it going, the priming would probably save crankshafts from having to be reground. However, in a diesel, you don't have to do this anyway, unless there was a catastrophic lower end failure of some kind, which the priming would probably not prevent. The diesel crankshafts go through a hardening process and only rarely have to be turned at rebuild time.

Good discussion,

------------------
Larry Bible
'01 C Class, Six Speed
'84 Euro 240D, manual, 533K miles
'88 300E 5 Speed
'81 300D Daughter's Car
Over 800,000 miles in
Mercedes automobiles