89 190e 2.6 stalled - won't start
 

My 1989 190e 2.6 lost power and stalled on the freeway the other day. Had it towed home and tried to start it.

It cranks and sometimes stutters a few revs, but never quite turns over. I did notice puffs of white smoke occasionally when I stop cranking. I pushed down the throttle plate and found more white smoke accumulating inside the throttle housing.

The first thing I did was come over here and start searching for information.

So far, I found that the last indy shop had installed platinum resistor plugs as part of a tune-up. I quickly replaced those with the copper H9DC's. I verified that fuel pump 'buzz' at the right rear wheel well. I also found fuel in the line from the fuel distributor to the cold start valve.

In the process of nosing around, I broke off one nozzle of the thermo vacuum valve, but if I understand correctly, this is part of the emission control system and shouldn't affect starting.

Does the white smoke offer any clue as to what's going on inside the engine?

Sounds to me like you may have a blown head gasket. Check your water and you oil for cross contaminants.

There is an old saying in the biz. It's gotta be fuel or fire unless it's an MB V/8. Then it could be bent valves, but that's another story. Pull the air cleaner and spray a couple of shots of carb cleaner on the air intake plate. If it fires for a short time, you've got a fuel problem. If it doesn't fire check for spark. You may even have a problem in the idle air management circuit. It is also a good idea to follow the advice of 190E dude unless you are sure your gauges were normal.

Good luck,
Peter

First thing you do is pull the plugs and check the chamber's one at a time for coolant! Also check the oil and coolant bottle for oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. My head gasket gave out slightly a few weeks back. I fixed it immediately and did not even start the car after I first noticed oil in the coolant bottle. But in the blowing of the head gasket it shot crap into the Pre-Cats and clogged them. So when I was done with the head gasket and had clogged pre-cats and did not know it I threw money into injectors and a new fuel filter, to find out that was not the issue. Then I finally disconnected the exhaust at the header and downpipe and the car ran great. Pulled the exhaust and gutted the pre-cats and cleaned the down pipes out of debri. Now the car runs better than it ever did. So my point here is before you kill it more, do some checking, then if all is well with the oil, coolant, chambers and timing chain proceed to the exhaust, first get a rubber mallet and tap the Cat's and Pre-Cats and listen for loose crap rattling around. If you hear something pull the Exhaust at the manifole to downpipe connection and see if it starts! Check fuel flow and all as well. As for you cold start injector having fuel in the line, I would assume it should, by design it shoudl be pre-charged with fuel and have no air in the line to work properly. That is how mine is!

Jamie has some good info, but I think he's getting the cart before the horse. I still suggest starting with the basics. Check if you are missing fuel or fire. If you have both you could do a compression test. Once you get it going and the power is low, you can easilly check for a restricted exhaust by hooking up a simple vacuum gauge. If vacuum is low at high rpms, you either have a restricted exhaust or retarded cam timing. If you report back with results, I'll help you if you want. I'm intimately familiar with th 89 180E 2.6. That is the exact car I bought for my 82 year old mother last year. Although I personnaly don't care for 190s, she loves the car. I bought the car for cheap, because the shop said it had no comp in 5 and 6. The head would have to come off. No biggie for me, but I did my own basic comp test and found #3 no comp. Cyls $5 and #6 were fine. Before jumping to conclusions, I pulled the valve cover to do a BASIC visual. The visual uncovered a broken valve spring on #3 cyl. I applied an air hold, took a spring from a scrap 3 liter I had in the corner, and had the car running in an hour. Remember the basics.

Peter

That is why I said to pull the plugs first, that can tell you an awefull lot just by looking at the plugs themselves. Look to see if there is coolant or fuel on the tip! Also check the wires, from one connector to the other not plugged into anything they should be around 1KOhm! Of course checking for spark is pretty simple if you have two people and like the occassional shock from touching the plug wire stupidly while touching the body of the car.:D Then once you verify all this you can move to the other things. What made me think of all this is that he stated he was getting white smoke! That is not good! And if it is coming from the intake then something is blocked or broken. On the M102 you can tell if the timing chain is still intact by just popping the oil cap, I would assume you can see it with the M103 oil cap removed as well. All in all start with the basics, like plugs, wire, cap, rotor!

Thank you all for the replies. I haven't had the time to get back under the hood, but it's going to be beautiful here tommorrow, so I'll let you know what I find out.

Hank

Read the first post carefully. He did not say he had white smoke when the car died. He said he saw white smoke after cranking. This is just unburned fuel vaporizing. You can remove the air cleaner on your car, ground the ignition, crank several times, and duplicate what he saw. Do the basics first and check for fire and fuel.

Peter

Latest findings ...
 

I checked for spark and noticed some spark 'gaps' or 'misses' after checking a couple of the wires. I removed the distributor and rotor and they looked pretty bad. The rotor 'blade' is pitted and looks like it was dragged sideways across an asphalt road. The contact points inside the cap all looked badly worn too.

Simply put, I haven't fixed it yet, but I clearly don't have reliable electrical contact or 'fire'.

I'll let you all know what happens after I replace these items.

Very good. You have isolated one problem, but you may still have a problem in the idle air management circuit.

Peter

Still no joy!
 

Here's the latest -

I can't find any oil contamination in the coolant.

I replaced the cap and rotor.

I replaced my broken thermo-vacuum valve.

I measured the spark plug wires. All measure about 1.1K ohms.

I measure the cold temperature sensor. Diagonal ohm measurements between pins are about 2.3K ohms per diagonal pair.

I removed the valve cover and found the timing chain intact.

The OVP relay 10A fuses are still intact.

The fuel pump buzzes so I'm guessing the fuel pump relay is OK.

I'm still getting white smoke in the throttle housing after cranking.

I removed a spark plug and smelled gasoline on the tip, so I believe I'm getting fuel.

Here's the newest thing - When the key is turned to the 'on' position, I hear a pronounced whooshing noise from the front of the engine above the alternator. I can actually feel the puff of air when I put my hand in that area. It sounds like something mechanical creates a blast of air that dies out after a second or two. I say mechanical because it reminds me of a fan slowing down. Is this normal or does it reveal a possible answer to my no-start problem.

Bumped to update information. See previous post.

Thanks

I have no clue what the whooshing sound is. Replacing the rotor and cap were good things, but you are wasting your time checking temp sensors and plug wire resistance, etc. Based on your newest post of smelling fuel on the plugs, it is possible that you have now fuel fouled the plugs by trying to start it so many times. If this is the case the car will never start even if you correct the original problem. What you need to do now is pull all the plugs and dry them out or put in a fresh set. If you still have the platinum plugs, you could temporarilly install them. Then do what I recommend in post #3. If it runs on carb cleaner, you know it is a fuel problem. If it still doesn't want to run, it is spark or electronic. You can rule out electronic by pulling the computer out of the car. It is right behind the battery. There are two computers there, so if you are not sure which is which, pull them both. One is the ABS computer. On a running car you can remove both of these units and the car will run and the brakes will work. The car will be running like a basic CIS system, and the ABS light on the dash will light. Follow these steps and you should be able to determine if it's fuel or fire. Right now you don't have a clue to which it is.

Good luck,
Peter

autozen,
I have a 260E 1988,
do I understand correctly that a W124 will run even with the Injection Control Unit unplugged?
thanks

CC260E,
That is correct. MB bought the Constant Injection System from Bosch in 1976. It was the first version and worked on air sensor plate position to adjust fuel amount to match air flow. There was a warmup regulator that lowered control pressure for a cold engine and acted like a choke. To increase power, increase fuel mileage, and reduce emissions engineers developed the oxygen sensor. This sensor that is in every modern car continually monitors oxygen in the exhaust and through the CIS computer trims the fuel quantity. You can remove the computer and you will have the basic 1976 system. The car won't run very well cold and power and mileage will suffer, but you can drive the car. The same goes for ABS. While working on the electronics on my mother's 89 190E 2.6, the ABS computer kept getting in my way, so I took it out and put it in the trunk. The ABS light stayed on and ABS was not available, but the brakes worked fine.

Peter

Have you looked at the AFM plate to see if it is centered properly and in spec? Also have you made sure that the intake boot between the AFM and Throttle body does not have any cracks or leaks. A test is to have someone slightly push the AFM plate down while cranking and seeing if it starts! That puffing sound you hear and slightly feel is most likely the Idle Air Control Valve opening and closing. It will cause short bursts of sound and maybe some air as well. And it is inline with the vent on the valve cover! I am willing to bet your issue is a crank sensor or something like a massive air leak! Check the crank sensor, it is fairly simple to test. Must be above 600 or 700 Ohms if I recall correctly. No crank signal will normally cause no spark though and you seem to be getting spark and fuel at least. If the AFM has an air leak and the plate does not get sucked down a hair during cranking it will not supply enough fuel to start the cold engine and hold it running. Some on the 190Rev forums have had this problem. Myself I just replaced my intake boot due to cracking on Monday and the car starts and runs so much smoother now than before.

You can also check the resistance of the wiring to the glove compartment light. It might be a good idea to check the resistance value of each sensor in the car, or you could just reread posts #3, #8, and #13. Do they sell carburetor cleaner where you live?

Peter

What the hell was that for? I explained what the noise was as you had no clue! And checking resistance on a sensor is a good thing in my mind not a bad one. Takes a few seconds to check and then verifies that it is ok if it is within the proper value. For your information if the crank position sensor is bad the plugs will still fire until the engine actually starts, so if it is bad then the Ignition Module never knows when the engine runs so therefore as soon as the key is let go it kills spark! Easy to check, you unplug and check. Why load the throttle body up with carb cleaner if it is not needed. Since the more carb cleaner you stuff in there the less likely it is to run. Have you ever sprayed carb cleaner directly into a running engine's intake? They stall when there is too much. A better idea would have been ether! I have a can just for that purpose as I needed it when I was done with my head gasket and all since the mixture was so lean the engine would not start. Once started though it would run rough enough and stay running long enough to set the mixture properly. Couple sprays was all it took. As for the rubber boot, thanks for not believeing this can cause a problem. Look at the actuall 190E forum and check it out, it happens more often than you would think. And a simple test is a heck of a lot better than spraying carb cleaner for no reason what so ever. ***** a visual inspection will tell you more than that. And as an FYI I personally had a bad Water Temp Sensor and bad intake boot cause issues! They were both bad when I got the car, and I have sprayed many a can of carb cleaner in the intake to clean to no avail. So sorry if I don't quite think Carb Cleaner is god's gift to making an engine run. A loaded up intake would not stop the engine from ever running. But a massive air leak, or bad sensor would. The Water Temp Sensor tells the CIS-E what the engine temp is, to fire the cold start valve and actuate the IACV as well as lean or enrichen mixture via the EHA. Well if the sensor is telling the CIS-E that the engine is running at 120 degrees then it will lean the crap out of the mixture and the car will not start. Also if the base mixture is too lean it will not start. If the Crank Sensor is not good it will not start and run. ***** if the OVP is bad and it is cold out it will not start without help! So easy things to check are better than going out and dumping more money into it for Carb Cleaner, even though it is cheap!

Easy Jamie,

I didn't mean to step on your toes. Wax on. Wax off. Wax on. Wax off. I was merely offering my 30 years of experience as a factory trained Mercedes mechanic. I ran my own full blown shop for 20 years. A correct and complete diagnostic approach is the fastest way to determine why a car doesn't run as opposed to Easter egging and guessing at everything. All the things you mentioned are possible problems in a vehicle, but changing all the vacuum hoses in the engine compartment won't help if the pump can't put out a liter of fuel in 40 seconds. I have seen people try every trick in the book to solve a rough idle problem and spend hours. If they had started with proper diagnostics, they would have discovered in less than a half hour that the car had no compression in one cylinder by doing a compression test. It's like medicine. When a patient complains of coughing and shortness of breath, you don't send them for an MRI or a blood work up. You check the lungs for fluid with a stethoscope, and if the sound isn't good, you send them to radiology for a chest xray. I spend quite a bit of time here helping people, and I do get satisfaction when I can help them solve their problem. I do, however, get annoyed when I'm asked for help, and my advice is totally ignored. It is even worse when you don't even get a thank you for something you normally charge $70.00/hr for and give away for free on this site. I think these are the reasons that the professionals are dropping off this site. They are burnt out. There are many on this site who have shown appreciation, and I have their names. We professionals offer years of experience for free, and all we ask is a simple thank you. The original poster can follow whichever path he chooses, but I have several broken MBs that I have bought waiting for me to do the valve jobs, etc. This thread is going on a month now, and my interest is waining.


Peter

pepperref,
I was just wondering if you figured out the problem? When you do let us know.

Understood Peter. I thought you were ripping on me for my suggestions as well! I know what you mean though, sometimes the simplest things get overlooked. Like my 190E that I have been trying to smooth out the idle for a year. Only to finally figure out one big problem was the head gasket, and another clogged pre-cats! Then the intake boot I noticed when I had the head and intake off. Now she runs great through the power band but still has a slight idle I feel when in Drive! I replaced the motor mounts, tranny mount, cap, rotor, plugs and wires but still there. Well yesterday I think I figured it out, it is the damn passenger side motor mount I think. In reverse she is smooth as glass, in park she is almost perfect as well, in Drive however I can see whatever is in my passenger seat doing a little slow dance! I must of just got a crap mount. Was being cheap at the time and got a pair off E-Bay for like $60. Now I need to spend $80-$100 on a good one. Oh well live and learn.:D:D:D

Jamie,
The mounts are filled with ethelene glycol (antifreeze) and they leak. You can measure the mount to see if it needs rplacing. The bottom edge of the metal on the mount should be no closer than 12 mm from the subframe. If you had clogged cats, you should have experienced a power loss. You can check for exhaust restrictions with a vacuum gauge. Hook it up to intake manifold vacuum and run the engine up to about 2000. The vacuum should drop off and immediately recover to above idle readings. If it is lower than idle reading, you have restricted exhaust or late valve timing.

Peter

I have checked the exhaust, since I gutted the pre-cats and then cut the cat off cause I thought it was bad too. Then put the cat back on... All is good there now. I think the mootor mounts I got were just cheap ones and maybe a little more stiff than the factory. Like I said when in Reverse or Park the engine is not felt! But when in Drive it is. Not very much but I do not think that I should feel what the motor is doing when it is idling smooth and not jumping around at all. I have checked vacuum and it is steady in that state, as well as the tach on the dash and the tach signal from the X11 connector hooked up to a meter. Everything runs and shifts perfectly and smoothly, just at stoplights I can see the vibration in the passenger seat and feel it. I ordered a new mount, better safe than sorry and got one from a place I know rather than E-Bay. I will keep my E-Bay purchases to used items only now and not the new ones that seem to be of lesser quality than the ones I get from ***********************.

A side not on the clogged cats, yes I could not rev over 4000 rpm or drive over 60MPH due to the cats clogged. Cats clogged when the head gasket let loose! I did not even start the engine after I relaized I was getting oil in my coolant so the engine and head are fine and it never overheated, just sent burnt AF and Oil directly into the pre-cats. Stupid me when I broke them apart did not get all of the stuff out and thus had to cut the pipes at the cat to get the rest out. Don't anyone look under my car til I get everything brazed into place properly.... No leaks but she sure does look ugly under there with all the clamps....:D:D:D

Explanation (sort of)
 

First off, let me apologize for not getting back to all of you sooner. It's simply a matter of time I have available to get back to the car. Beside my day job, I've been very involved the last 4 weekends volunteering for a youth soccer league. So while the 190e is my first choice as a daily driver, I do have another car available to me while she's down.

Autozen - Your 2/15 recommendations are still my first priority and I will post the results as soon as I can try them. Hopefully, I can get a break in the rain this weekend. Please don't let my perceived 'lack of interest' discourage your contribution to this board.

Peppereff,

Standing by.

Peter

Thanks autozen, sorry to not having been able to come earlier.

This is exactly the kind of experience that helps everyone to find out where some sneaky malfunctionnings of our cars come from, without replacing blindly expensive modules.

On my car (a fantastic car by the way) 260E, 1988, 400 000 km, there are some erratic loss of power like stalling from fuel starvation or something else for which I have not yet been able to identify the origine.
One these days I will drive with the computer disconnected, to see whether the CIS and its periferals are creating the lack of power.

Finally got back into the car!
 

I finally found some time to perform some of the tests suggested by the group.

I verified that the spark plugs were dry and checked for spark. I'm getting nice fat orange sparks. I also checked the coil after reading that 'weak' coils can be a problem. I'm getting nice blue arcs to ground off of the coil.

I sprayed carb cleaner onto the throttle plate but still no start.

Afterwards, I experimented with shorting the fuel pump relay. The fuel pump buzzes continuously but still no start.

I removed the short and then removed the CIS and ABS modules. On the second or third try, the engine turned over and idled roughly for maybe 5 seconds. I was only able to repeat this '5-second idle' a few times, but each time the engine stalled out. While this would seem to point at the CIS as a problem, the fact that it doesn't stay running throws some doubt into that theory.

In summary, I'm confident about having spark, the car almost runs without the CIS module, but without opening a fuel line, I'm still not 100% sure that I don't still have a fuel issue.

So, if everyone hasn't given up on me yet, I could use some more suggestions on my next step.

The OVP relay powers the KE ECU, idle control system, and ABS. If it opens up due to an overvoltage condition, blows the fuse due to excess current or fails due to an internal defect you will get an ABS light, have no idle control, and no cold start enrichment.

Duke

autozen Help please
 

Hello Peter,
Thanks for your indication about functionninng of engine as indicated in this thread.

I tried it on a 40km drive and it worked perfectly. Except for starting at cold temperature (expected).

I have another question.
I changed the adjustement of the stop screw of the Throttle butterfly because I wanted to clean the throttle body.
I have never been able to find in any book or any forum the adjustment procedure of the stop screw to bring it back to nominal position.
I did it as good as possible but I believe it is not good enough (very difficult and I assume because of the high reactions from ICS connected module).

Without the ICS module connected, I found that the idle is a bit too high (900/mn) but very stable and regular.

I am wondering whether adjusting the stop screw of the throttle butterfly (and consequently the idle rev) without the ICS module connected would be the right adjustment way to do it.

Could you give advice on my finding?

In advance many thanks for your help

cc260E

CC260E,
I'm sorry I haven't answered your PM yet, but I've been busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. I will get back to you soon.

Peppereff,
Based on your last post, it sounds like an ignition problem, and I'm suspecting a failed EZL module. The fact that you didn't even get a pop with carb cleaner tells me fuel delivery is ok. Sometimes to save the hastle of pushing a car with a failed fuel pump into the shop, one guy sits on the radiator support with the hood up constantly spraying carb cleaner at the throttle plate while the other guy drives the car into the shop.

Peter

Things are looking up
 

It's been a long time since this thread was started but I finally was able to get back into the car.

To review, it died on the freeway. Couldn't get it started. Tried autozen's and others suggestions, but still couldn't identify the cause.

I had decided to keep this car so I decided to spend a few bucks replacing the plug wires (looked original - 185k miles), various breather/vacuum hoses (one I broke while nosing around), the broken air cleaner housing (looked like some oaf just yanked the old one until the mounting brackets broke off). Still no start.

I'd also read somewhere on this site about the ignition coil getting weak, so when I saw a used one show up on ebay for cheap, I decided it was worth a shot.

So I swapped out the coils and the car started. I was apprehensive about allowing it to idle since it started for me briefly during once before but died when I took my foot off the gas. So I sat there and warmed it up to its' normal operating temperature. When I let off the gas, it stayed running. It ran relatively smoothly, even well enough to take it around the block a few times.

Soon it will be off to get the leaky vacuum modulator serviced and then I'll load it with fresh gas and some Techron, and see if I have any idle issues.

Thanks again to everyone who posted suggestions. Especially autozen, your 'fuel or fire' theory was right on, luckily for me it wasn't the EZL module.