Strange how most of the unusual problems I have with my '90 190E 2.3 Sportline are associated with what attracted me to it in the first place - the fact that it is a 5-speed manual. Most of the tricky problems have been with the clutch or more precisely the clutch hydraulics. They are all sorted now, but something that has puzzled me is a "rattle" the clutch has. Ever since I have owned the car (2 years now), the clutch (or something in that area) has rattled briefly when stopping the engine. The same rattle can also be heard if the engine idle speed drops slightly below normal (eg. when air-con compressor engages). The rattle is definitely in the clutch region (ie. within bell housing). Does anyone have a suggestion what this may be? I don't believe it is normal although it does not seem to be getting worse nor does it cause any problems. The only other possibly related issue is some clutch shudder when cold, particularly after the car has stood unused for some days. I have assumed this could possibly be oil contamination as there is a what appears to be a slight leak from the rear main crankshaft seal. Possibly the shudder is related to the rattle though?

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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.

I think it's a "designed in feature", Greg, and it affects a lot of different cars. Late model Corvette owners have the same complaint.

It's appears on my car at idle with the A/C compressor engaged. The sound isn't too bad inside the car, but outside the car it sounds like a ball bearing rattling around in an empty metal coffee can.

There are two possible sources. One is the clutch fork, and the other is a torsional vibration in the reverse gear idler. In any event it goes away when you depress the clutch.

I whinned about it to the dealer a couple of times, but there was nothing they could do, and it's not something that will lead to a failure - it's just annoying. If they had set up the idle control system to "idle up" a couple of hundred revs when the A/C compressor engages, it probably wouldn't be an issue.

Try depressing the clutch pedal just enough to load the clutch fork, but not enough to disengage it. If the rattle stops, it's the fork. If not, it's a torsional vibration inside the gearbox.

Clutch chatter on take up could be due to contamination on the disk or slight uneven wear. Leaks at the rear seal don't usually contaminant the disk unless they are very severe. The oil will seep down the back of the block and may get on the front of the flywheel, but from there it will be slung off from centrifugal force.

Duke

Don't know about your car, but on most vehicles displaying the same symptoms, it is usually the throw-bearing.
Just an annoyance rather than a " real " problem.
Most people consider this to be one of those jobs not worth fixing.

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2007 C 230 Sport.

There's no load on the clutch release bearing with the pedal up, but it can rattle around on the clutch gear sleeve as can the whole release fork.

A "bad" release bearing would make a growling noise when the clutch pedal is in and the bearing is loaded with the clutch clamping force.

Release fork/gear rattle at idle is a common "problem" on many makes/models with manual transmissions, but it's purely cosmetic - just an annoyance and not and indication of a problem.

Duke

Thanks Duke,

I was not too concerned about the rattle as it has not got any worse since I have owned the car. I am a little surprised it could be considered normal as it does sound rather unrefined. On mine, the idle speed is just high enough for it usually not to rattle. Any extra load (eg. a/c compressor or large electrical load) can cause a momentary drop in idle speed for the rattle to occur briefly. Otherwise the rattle is only audible when stopping the engine. As you state it is also only really audible outside the car or with a door or window open. It also does not occur with the clutch pedal depressed. It sounds to me like it may be the clutch friction plate rattling on its splines. The other thought (although this one would definitely be a fault) would be if one of the springs on the friction plate was broken and rattling. I just have difficulty accepting that MB would have designed it such that this could occur.

As to the clutch shudder or chatter, I too could not imagine oil from the rear main seal getting from the engine side around to the clutch side of the flywheel, although I know that oil contamination can cause clutch shudder. Possibly it is some other form of contamination or wear as you mention. It certainly is worse cold and if the car has sat unused for days, and more so in very humid weather (moisture on the friction plate or even a light coating of rust on the flywheel or pressure plate?). When it does occur it is necessary to de-clutch and try again as backlash in the driveline (flex couplings, universal joints, splines and differential) is sufficient for the shudder to become fairly severe. Either more or less revs does the trick and deliberately slipping the clutch briefly pretty much cures it until the next cold start. I guess just one of the quirks of an ageing car that we adjust to by using driving techniques that keep our old cars happy.

Thanks,
Greg

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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.

The engine creates harmonic vibrations because of it firing pluses; if these harmonic vibrations are not dampened you have gear rattle. The torsion damper assembly; the splined hub, torsion spring, retaining plate which are part of the clutch disc assembly job is to dampen, filter out noise thru the drive train, every time an engine fires. Giving the fact that you have clutch chatter, I would say its time for a clutch job.

The clutch disk damper is designed to damp significant torsional vibrations, not the minor vibrations that cause clutch fork or gear rattle at idle.

My car has had the reverse gear idler rattle with the A/C compressor on since it was new.

Duke

I know there is a known fault with the 5 speed manual gearboxes with a rattle.

Post your gearbox number (first 6 digits) and I'll look it up tomorrow at work.

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Alex.

MB Tech
Sydney, Australia
Volvo 122S
W201 190D 2.5 manual
W202 C240
W203 C32

Where do I find the gearbox number, or can you only look up for Aussie models?

Duke

It should be on your vehicle data card in your owners manual. I think it's 717.........

Otherwise it'll be stamped on the side of the gearbox. I just need the first 6 digits eg. 717411 (my car)

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Alex.

MB Tech
Sydney, Australia
Volvo 122S
W201 190D 2.5 manual
W202 C240
W203 C32

I am pretty sure the rattle in mine is clutch rather than gearbox. Listening under the car it is loudest at the opening in the lower front of the bell housing. For what it's worth, I just entered my VIN on the MB Club of Russia's great site that allows you to check all details of your car (http://www.mbclub.ru/mb/vin/index.html?lng=eng) and it gives my transmission number as 71741301612307. Before all you MB owners rush off to check your VINs on this site, be aware that it only works for cars after 1980 and only for normal MB (ie. non US) VINs (eg. mine starts WBD2010282F...).

I won't be on-line for about the next week and a half so I'll have to wait until then to see any replies. Just letting you know so you don't think I am rude for not replying.

Thanks,
Greg

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107.023: 350SLC, 3-speed auto, icon gold, parchment MBtex (sold 2012 after 29 years ownership).
107.026: 500SLC, 4-speed auto, thistle green, green velour.
124.090: 300TE, 4-speed auto, arctic white, cream-beige MBtex.
201.028: 190E 2.3 Sportline, 5-speed manual, arctic white, blue leather.
201.028: 190E 2.3, 4-speed auto, blue-black, grey MBtex.
201.034: 190E 2.3-16, 5-speed manual, blue-black, black leather.

Great! I don't have to crawl under the car.

On the data card (in the maintenance booklet), item 7, getriebe: 717435

It's a US model '88 190E 2.6, WDBDA29D3JF449XXX, build date: 12/87

Duke

My '88 2.3 has a similar build date and it has a slight rattle on the TOB since I bought it at 42K many years ago. 200k later, it still has the original TOB and clutch parts. Rattle only happens when engaging the clutch pedal and starts at about half-way up from the floor. Once fully engaged it has a slight sound, almost unnoticable unless you are concentrating on listening for it.

It's just not worth the time or the trouble to look into!

the only bullitens I could find talk alot about checking for smooth engine running first (especially in diesels), some earlier cars with a clutch disk that rattled and alot on A class gearbox rattles.

I would stick with glmoys post and ignore it unless it has become more aparent recently.

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Alex.

MB Tech
Sydney, Australia
Volvo 122S
W201 190D 2.5 manual
W202 C240
W203 C32

Hello,
Around here ALL the 5 speed manual BMW 3s/5s and MBs have this rattle, I was told it is the layshaft rattling, it is very obvious when the engine is turned off.
Since I do not own any of the above 5 speed manuals, I never did follow up on the reason/s for this noise.
You could change the oil to a synthetic like Mobil SHC 630 or Redline MTL but I doubt if it will be of any help. Many cars that have all aluminium case gearboxes seem to have a variety of noises associated with the gearbox
Have a good week

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Nachi11744