P/S Maintenance
 

i am going to change the filter and flush the fluid in my p/s system this weekend, are there any caveats i should know about, or is this pretty straight forward? i read the DIY written by Herbert Rocha, any other tips?

The technique all-in all sounds pretty much ok. There's mention at the site about "clips", etc. inside the p/s unit.

On mine, you unscrew a large black plastic knob, remove, then the metal lid comes off. I then use a deep socket 10mm to remove a 10mm nut on top. With this off, a plastic piece and spring come off a rod. The filter can be removed using needle nose pliers. The fluid level indication marks are on the plastic piece.

Do be sure to remove the return hose and not the high pressure hose. I had to take the latter off once - it was leaking and had a heck of a time getting it reconnected. Didn't want to catch.

thanks for the reply, i would bet that my system is the same as yours since we both have 300SELs.

I read through the technique and I believe it is missing a few steps. During the flush procedure the helper should turn the wheel from lock to lock to flush all the fluid. At least this is true for rack systems -- I'm not sure if it's necessary for the worm screw type. If you turn the wheel from lock to lock, it is best done with the wheels off the ground to reduce the pressure of the fluid coming out.

I have always done it the less messy way... I always suck the p/s fluid out with a turkey baster...then change the filter..

I buy true power steering fluid...valvoline.... it is clear.... I add it back in.. then each week for the next 3 or 4 weeks i repeat the sucking procedure and add new. After about the 4th time, you have a clean system...and you can monitor the system by the "clearness" of the fluid. This takes next to no time.

I usually buy two quarts of fluid.

I tend to do the same with brake fluid in between pad changes... at a pad change, I bleed it down pretty good... brake fluid seems to stay pristine.

No mess, no fuss.

Of course I suck the oil out to change it, rather than draining it.

Tranny fluid, I do the traditional and very messy way... drain the converter and tranny, then drop the pan (the messy part-- and change the filter)

just my .02

Lots of thoughts on how to do this. I too like the simple turkey baster approach. I do it at every oil change.

However, the regular turkey baster you buy at the grocery store won't live long. They were not designed to work with chemicals. I've been through I don't know how many.

If this is the approach you want to take, go to Auto Zone or other mass-marketer auto parts store and buy a battery acid filler.

Here's a photo of one. You may have to click on the "expand photo" section.

I bought one of these a good while back and it's holding up much better than a turkey baster.

http://www.napaonline.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/NAPAonline/search_results_product_detail.d2w/report?prrfnbr=15616585&prmenbr=5806&usrcommgrpid=

i thought turning the wheels might help flush the system, however i figured the pressure from the pump at idle would be sufficient?.?.

i like the idea of cleanliness, but i would like to get this done in one shot and not have to revisit it every weekend. how do you think the MB fluid stacks up against the valvoline? i already ordered the MB fluid...

Anything is better than Dexron, which is loaded with additives that aren't necessarily needed for power steering systems, and may even be too hard on the power steering system seals of older cars.

For the price ($8), I'm curious if the MB fluid is synthetic. The bottle doesn't indicate that it is synthetic.

At least on rack steering systems, you have top turn the wheel from lock to lock or you miss the fluid in the dead spots. I'm told this technique is actually covered in schooling for auto mechanics. Pump pressure at idle is more than enough to pump the fluid. That's why I suggest lifting the front wheels off the ground, to keep the pressure managable during this procedure.

[QUOTE=Kestas]Anything is better than Dexron

In some cases yes, but not all. Many Asian cars come from the factory with Dexron in their PS units and their associated shop manuals call for it as well.

I looked above and saw no ref to Dexron anywhere. Maybe I missed it. There was a ref. to Valvoline PS fluid.

I recall reading posts by Larry Bible on this subject. He merely uses regular PS fluid purchased from McParts; not the special MB PS fluid.

I use the MB fluid which is actually made by Febi. Comes in a dark blue bottle. Forget the part number.

I read a post on either this site or another some years ago that claimed the special MB PS fluid was made for MBs with serpentine belts. Traditional PS fluid could be used in the V-8s.

Who knows? These types of discussions end up being like the oil and coolant talks.

Don't put Dexron in any power steering system.... years ago, I think people did that...bought a 69 cent quart of p/s fluid and put it in..

people (including me with a 72 280se) wondered why seals and hoses would start weeping.

with experience and mistakes hopefully brings wisdom..

I haven't wised up to synthetics just yet however....

[QUOTE=lee polowczuk]Don't put Dexron in any power steering system.... years ago, I think people did that...bought a 69 cent quart of p/s fluid and put it in..

I realize this is an MB board and that Dexron is not the way to go, but to say "don't put it in any ps system" is wrong. As I just said above, many Asian cars come with it from the factory and use it in the maintenance process.

I don't think that is a sound method re: brake fluid, unless it is just to do it between bleeding all the fluid every 2-3 years (which sounds like it may be the case depending on quick you go through brake pads). you are changing the fluid in the m/c but you will never change the fluid in the calipers that takes the most heat and tends to be the dirtiest.

Few suggestions to Herbert's steps:

. Jack up the front or put it on stands for same reason as others suggested.
. Attach/connect a barb (3/4" I think) and a clear tube to the return hose & direct it to the waste containter - when clear fluid starts flowing out, you'd know it (changing in color)
. Turn steering wheel from lock to lock to disposed old fluid till no more coming out (without engine running of course) before putting in new fluid - you don't want to mix them up.
. Remove the EFI Main relay/fuse - you don't want the engine running as the fluid pumping out would be too fast (to adaquately refill the reservoir); but just cranking it instead.
. After reconnecting everything up - turn the wheel lock to lock to bleed all the air & refill if needed.

Frank.

re: brake fluid

I do the turkey baster method in between pad changes. I think brake fluid is an overlooked fluid change.

The turkey baster method doesn't accomplish much. It's most definitely the equivalent of simply changing the engine oil filter then adding enough oil to fill it up again. This is definitely not very effective.

The return line in the drain pan and flushing at least two quarts through the system is the method on the ASE test and as far as I'm concern the only way to truly FLUSH the system.

Only the latest of models that specify ATF should use ATF, earlier models, even the ones from the eighties and earlier that specify ATF should get Power Steering Fluid. ATF changed in the eighties to a formula that is hard on the early system seals.

Good luck,

thank you, frank! i was a little concerned that having the engine running would create too much pressure in the system. i forgot about removing the relay as a solution. i used to do that to adjust the valves in my bmw...

thanks for clearing that up larry, now i am not sure i can get this done and change the front pads on saturday. if i keep at it, i think i will manage however. :dizzy2: :juggle2: :sweatdrop

Larry - Mercedes in their infinite wisdom says to use MB power steering fluid in my '88 190E. Do you or anyone else know for sure what, if any commercially available P/S fluids are okay to use in our vintage cars? Does Mercedes list any commercially available P/S fluids in their current spec sheets.

Duke

Do you do that with the engine running? Or just cranking it off the battery? It's kind of scary to run the engine with the power steering return line disconnected.

On cold below zero days my ps pump would whine until the engine would warm up a bit. I was running new Febi ps fluid. I changed to the official MB stuff and no more noise, the MB stuff is pretty thin.

Hatterasguy is offering info that I have never heard. Given his info it sounds like you would be better served with the MB stuff in some cars. I have run auto supply p/s fluid in 123 and 124 cars with great success.

Yes the flushing method I describe requires engine running. The fluid goes through VERY fast so you need an assistant to start the engine and turn the steering wheel while you pour through the fluid. When it is empty have the assistant shut down engine immediately.

It is also good to suspend the front wheels to decrease load for the time in which the system temporarily runs dry.

Good luck,

I still support the turkey baster method... I can do it in my work clothes if I have to... it still takes two quarts ...draining and adding over time.

I am close to clear... and am about 1 1/2 quarts into the project on this car.

I don't follow this at all.

The Febi fluid bears the MB part number for PS fluid. The product you buy from MB comes in an identical container, just says MB. FEBI probably makes it for them under contract.

Yes they do. Check the following link. You'll find it on Page 6.

But I still support the notion of using only power steering fluid instead of Dexron III.

BTW, I noticed the people who wrote the booklet don't know how to spell Dexron.

No Febi is different stuff at least the Febi Fastlane sells is. The MB fluid is redish in color and is a very light oil. The Febi stuff is the color of motor oil and is thicker. I compared the two side by side they are different.

The bottles are different as well, the MB stuff is in a Mobil 1 style bottle.

Hatterasguy:

Interesting. I too lined them up side by side, but that was some years back. Apparently the formulation has changed, kinda like the color of MB coolant.

Hard to keep up with all of this.

I've just done mine with the turkey baster method but

>stupid question<
where is the low and high level indicator on an 89 300ce.

I have no makings on the reservoir, nor anything on the plastic sleeve that holds down the spring. The only markings on the plastic sleeve are these long triangles as shown. This sleeve is not shown in the Mercedes Bible nor the Service CD's.

Jorg

Kestas - thanks for the link.

Looks like my S-Class 126 car has been filled with the wrong p/s fluid since ???

I've been using the Febi 000 989 88 03 - blue bottle - $7-$8 a bottle.

The approved product list indicates the S Class uses Pentosis 001 989 24 03 10 - this stuff sells for about $21 a bottle.

Somewhere along the way I took a wrong turn I suppose. Not going to get to concerned about it. Been using Febi for 8 yrs. and if somethings wrong, someone is going to have to point it out.

***************************************************UPDATE******************************************* ***************

Well it just fell on me like a ton of bricks. The approved products list indicates S Class cars use the mega-bucks Pentosis fluid.

The E-Class car, MANY of which carry the M103 motor use the lower priced Febi. My 126 cars has a 103 motor - same as MANY of the E-Class cars, so why would I need the high $$$ Pentosin?

I'm staying with the Febi.

Part number off the bottle of the MB stuff: Q 1 46 0001. It runs about $12 a quart. I only changed it because it was making noise and I figured for $12 it was worth a shot. Febi is fine.

According to the bottle it is Made in the USA for MB in Montvale, NJ.

Thanks for the link! I have a half full 500 ml bottle of 000 989 88 03 MB PS fluid, which dates back to '92 when the sector seal blew out in my car. This same fluid is called out in the 2001 service product list for the E-class with a note that approved Dextron [sic] III fluids can also be used. Since Dexron is a GM trademark and they control the spec, it would be fair to assume that any product that carried the Dexron trademark should be okay as a substitute for 000 989 88 03(?)

The C, S, and SL-class call out 000 989 24 03 10 PS fluid, and there is no note that Dexron III can be substituted. So does anyone know why a different PS fluids are called out for different models?

I've always had a beef with MBNA about service products. Nothwithstanding that calling Dexron "Dextron" is inexcusable, some years ago I was trying to find a Pennzoil "xxxx" 85W-90 GL-5 gear oil that was on their approved service products list with no luck. I finally contacted Pennzoil, and they said this particular four-digit product number was not even marketed in North America, so I ended up using their 80W-90 product that was readily available. Thanks alot MBNA for sending me on a wild goose chase. It looks like they haven't improved the quality of their service products list... rant off.

I'd like to flush out my PS system anddon't want to pay $40 for fluids, but don't want to install something that may cause problems. I'm still trying to sort it out.

Duke

Duke,

The problem with ATF came about in the late eighties, early nineties when ATF went through a radical change. Earlier cars had seals that worked okay with early ATF, but once ATF changed it was bad for the seals. After awhile the manufacturers changed seals in many cars to a material that would not be attacked by modern ATF.

I believe that generic p/s fluid is safe for most any MB, but if you desire to run the MB stuff and don't want to be out all that extra money during the entire flushing procedure, I would recommend that you flush with the generic stuff and then once you seal everything back up, fill it up with MB fluid.



For all of you that insist on the turkey baster method, why don't you try the industry accepted flush method? It only takes about 15 minutes and does a THOROUGH job of cleaning everything out SAFELY. This is not to imply that the turkey baster method is not safe, it's just that it is not cleaning the system.

Best of luck regardless of the method your choose,

how much generic fluid residue do you think would be left behind?

I've been a member of this board for awhile.

Larry Bible has replied to many of these power steering fluid posts.

I know that in many, he has mentioned going to your local McParts and buying plain ole power steering fluid. Nothing fancy, nothing expensive, just plain ole power steering fluid.

If Larry has been doing this for years, then I'd say plain ole off the shelf power steering fluid would be ok.

My 2 cents.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=105161&highlight=quart

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=26578&highlight=quart

according to the link it appears to be straight forward.

This thread has taken on a life of its own....

Now how about tranny fluid, synthetic or Dexron III?

Just kidding.... or maybe not.

But according to the service products list posted by Kestas, Dexron III can be substitued for the 000 989 88 03 MB PS fluid that I think is correct for my '88, so that means my choices are the above MB fluid, Dexron III or commercially available PS fluid(?) From your explanation the implication is that Dexron III should not be used in my model.

I'm sorry to beat this to death, but the signals are very mixed.

BTW, how many miles/years on the commercial PS fluid do you have on your 300E?

As a related question, just out of curiosity, most commercial PS fluids say not to use them in Hondas, and I've seen some "Honda specific" commercially available PS fluids at Macparts. Anyone know the story on this situation? Maybe it can shed some light.

Duke

I'm sorry that you thought I meant that Modern ATF should not be used in ANY MB. That is not what I meant. There could be later models, like somwhere in the nineties, in which they call for Dexron type ATF. There are earlier models that call for ATF in the manual, but ATF went through its change after that manual was written.

Since MB says that Dexron can be substituted for that particular part number, I wonder if there is more than one P/S fluid available from MB. It's hard to imagine MB themselves authorizing such a substitution that would take money out of their pocket.

In my 300E I flushed the p/s system and changed to generic fluid right after I got the car at around 80,000 miles. The car now has 277,000 miles I think. I have flushed and changed twice since then with generic. I could look at my log book for exact mileage at which it was changed the last two times, but basically it was about every 100,000 miles.

Additionally my '84 240D started using generic p/s fluid at about 380,000 miles after the shaft seal went out. The shaft seal went out after running Dexron beginning with the previous flush. I would have to consult the logbook for exact mileages. I unknowingly switched to Dexron because the car was getting old and I was trying to save a few bucks. It wasn't too long, maybe 50,000 miles after switching to ATF that the seal went out. I can't confirm or deny that the ATF was the cause of the seal failure, but that was about the time that I read about the new ATF's causing seal failure in power steering systems.

At that point, I put in a wrecking yard pump and generic p/s fluid and it has run another 150,000 miles or so with no further trouble.

Good luck with your choice,

Yes, there are TWO different PS fluids called out for current generation cars and Dexron III is listed as a substitute for only ONE, which I believe is the "old" fluid that was OE in our vintage cars! Check out Kestas' link to the 2001 service products list, and I listed the two numbers an model applicability in a previous post.

Maybe we can get you confused, too. ;)

Duke