Techron = Placebo Effect?
 

Whenever I heard someone say they got a bad tank of gas, or told someone to avoid a certain gas station or chain because they sell bad gas, I thought it was all in their head. In all my time driving, I have NEVER experienced anything resembling a tank of bad gas. That is, until a few days ago. I filled up at Wal-Mart / Murphy USA and immediately after filling up - and I do mean IMMEDIATELY - my car started doing this weird jerk. As I was pulling out of the station, it seemed like it was either misfiring or shuddering, just once here and there, but each time it occurred it shook the whole car. It kept doing it intermittently throughout my lunch hour. It wasn't really noticeable at speed i.e. while moving; it only seemed to occur while stopped at a light with the trans in drive. As the day progressed, and through my hourlong commute home, it went from intermittent to being regular. At that point, stopped at a light, the car would "jerk" about every 20 seconds or so. Each time it jerked, it felt like a really bad misfire, as if the engine was going to cut out. But it never did. Boy did it make me nervous though.

The next morning, I was backing out of the garage as usual. I normally start the car right up, put it in reverse, back out of the garage, and then idle for a few seconds to let the engine warm up. Our 20 x 20 master suite is above the garage, and I don't like the thought of gassing my wife as she sleeps, so I idle outside the garage before leaving. Except this time it stalled when put into reverse. I put it back in park and cranked, and nothing. Had to crank and crank and crank and then it finally caught, but very weakly. This was scary now. I let the car warm up for about 5 minutes and, having no choice, drove it to work. Once again, a nerve-wracking commute as the car kept shuddering and misfiring, leaving me to wonder when it was going to stall on me. But again, it never did this at speed - only while sitting stopped with the trans in drive.

After a few days of putting up with this, I put two and two together and decided that maybe it was in fact the recent tank of gas causing the problem. Did some research on this board in the past and had read a lot about Techron, so I took a chance, picked some up yesterday at lunchtime with about 1/8 to 1/4 remaining in my tank. Dumped the whole bottle in there, then put $10 of gas in (about 4.5 to 5 gallons). Then I proceeded to drive it like a Formula One car, very hard. Throughout my lunch hour, it still did the same stumble/misfire thing. But here's where things get interesting. On my drive home, although it continued to jerk, it did it a little less. By the time I got home, it was jerking only about once every minute or two when stopped at a light. And the jerks weren't as severe.

When I got home after work, I put the wife and kids in the car (rather than use the minivan) and we drove it to get some things done. Through the drive, the jerking kept decreasing in frequency and intensity. By the time we got back home, the car seemed to be *mostly* back to normal. I say mostly because the jerking was gone completely, but the car seemed to idle slightly rough, whereas it used to be pretty smooth. On a scale of 1 to 10, it used to idle at about a 9, but now it was about a 7.

Driving to work this morning, same story. Idling at about 7 to 8 (not perfectly smooth), but no stalling, jerking, or misfiring. The few gallons with the Techron in them are almost entirely burned up, and I will have to fill up again once I get home.

Here are the questions I have:

1) Do you think my problem was caused by bad gas?
2) The tanker was filling the station up when I was there. I've heard theories that this is a bad time to fill up since it stirs up impurities in the underground tanks. Is there any truth to this?
3) Did the Techron actually cure my problem or was it coincidence since I had mostly burned off the "bad" tank of gas?
4) Do you think this was just a freak thing and is gone, or will the problem come back?
5) I have filled up at the same station here by my workplace for nearly a year and have never had a bad experience. The few gallons I put in for the Techron came from this same station, and I plan to continue using the same station unless this problem occurs again. Am I stupid?

Thanks everyone.

Although there are combustibles in it, Chevron's Techron is primarily a detergent/solvent, not an octane booster.

There are occasions of bad gas being distributed by refineries, typically at lower cost stations that sell "base gasoline" which is the basic refinery fuel. Other brands use the base gasoline with their own proprietary additives/detergents to create their signature fuel. Last year service stations at certain Costco/PriceClub were hit with a big batch of off fuel.

Underground fuel tanks have filters, as does your fuel tank that would catch "particles."

And finally, a lesson for life . . . never overlook the power of coincidence. Just monitor your cars performance over the next couple of tankfuls.

sometimes when a tank is being filled it does stir up the junk. But, they do have filters. However, low tanks are subject to greater surface areas which can lead to condensation and the addition of water to the fuel. So, you might have had a combination of crummy fuel (you did buy at a walmart, the captain of crummy) and/or a bit of extra water in the fuel. the fuel and water would not mix properly, so you'd have a splash blend. Over a little bit of time, it would separate, and you'd get uneven running for a time, but not neccessarily the entire tank, depending on where your fuel pick-up is located.

1) Yes, "bad gas" is usually due to water contamination

2) Yes, It is good practice for the station not to use a freshly filled tank for at least one-half hour, but I suspect this rarely happens in practice. Filling the tank can stir up water at the bottom of the tank and allow it to mix more with the fuel, but it will settle out to the bottom with time.

3) No, Techron is probably the best product on the market to clean deposits off injectors and inlet valves, but it will not cure a water problem. Ethanol is a "co-solvent" which will allow separated water to mix uniformly with gasoline and in such low concentration, it will not cause driveability problems. The problem probably self corrected due to the water being purged from the system by the normal consumption of fuel. There are also commercial "gas driers" available at auto parts stores, which contain ethanol. If it ever happens again, try one of them.

BTW, is your fuel "oxygenated" with ethanol? Most areas of the country require oxygenates in the winter, but not summer and March is usually the changeover period.

4) Probably just a freak occurance, but try to avoid filling up when you see a tanker unloading.

5) I would suggest you talk to the station manager and tell him about the problem. Ask if they allow the tanks to "settle" for at least a half-hour after a fuel delivery before the fresh fuel is made available to the pumps.

Duke

This doesn't surprise me at all.

I live in a small town that has a Wal-Mart Super Center. I had a conversation not long ago with the owner of a local independent garage. He went on to tell me how he had gone thru a slew of cars being towed in over a 2-3 week period of time. The gas tanks on all of these towed vehicles had white milky looking whatever in them. Same question was asked of all owners - where do you buy your gas? - same answer - Wal-Mart.

There is a reason why WM is cheap and you often times pay for doing business with this kind of company.

Rules to live by...
 

Greetings ShopForum,

Regarding the topic, you are more likely to ignite a holy war than hear objective advice. My personal experience with the BG product line (44k and fuel injection cleaner) in several vehicles during the past four years has been very positive. I also intend to give the Auto-Rx (http://www.auto-rx.com/) engine cleaner a go in the near future.

These have been stated in different ways by other respondants.. but here are some good rules to live by:

- Choose stations that are frequently refueled (i.e. close to a highway exit).
- Always choose a station associated with a well-known brand (Shell, Esso, Chevron, Amoco/BP, etc.). Base fuel is often sourced from a single refinery for a region, but detergent quality really does make a difference.
- Rotate between at least two brands every other month or quarter.
- Do replace your fuel filter(s) on schedule and routinely check your fuel lines for leaks.

- Avoid stations at the bottom of a hill or in a valley -- these tend to have greater risk of contamination during rainfall.
- Avoid stations with older pump equipment, and thus older storage tanks more susceptible to contamination. Just ask me how I learned this valuable lesson :-(
- Avoid fueling your car while the tanker is fueling the storage tanks, old wives tale or not.

Just my humble opinions,
-DM

What causes the gas to turn into that white milky stuff?

Warren:

I haven't a clue. It sounds strange to me, but I've known the owner of this shop for about 15 yrs. - not one to fantasize.

He saw this on about a half dozen cars. All were towed in. All of the owners claiming they had been buying gas at the local Wal-Mart.

Who Knows.

On a different note, WM sells brand name tires..ie.. Good Year, but try getting a warranty issue on one of these tires resolved at a Good Year dealer. They are made by Good Year under contract for WM. Not the same quality as regular Good Year.

Who knows who they get their gas from or what quality controls are/are not being used.

Your post really has nothing to do with Techron.

Odds are you got water in your gas. Happened to me as well.

Owner of station was combative, and claimed that this was "impossible", and yet there was the water. I didn't even want anything from her, just thought they would like to know there was a problem.

I pumped out the tank, then drained the residual. Then I let the water settle out, and poured the gas off the top for reuse.

Water. :bulb:

The gas isn't "bad" or "cheap" at these places, the management is just cheap/lazy. :eek: They have procedures for draining condensation (water) out of their storage tanks. The bozos running these stations just aren't doing them. :confused: Complain and/or buy elsewhere.

BTW, this has nothing to do with octane rating. It's just that water doesn't burn too well. Luckily, with most fuel injection systems, the gas flows past the injectors and back to the tank, so you get enough circulation of gas to let the car keep running. In a carburated engine, the gas would accumulate in the float bowls and you'd be stuck until you disassembled and drained them.
:(

Could it be possible that the rough running conditions caused a motor mount to collapse which, in turn, is now causing the rough idle?

Also consider some stations carry a layer of water at the bottom of the stations' tanks (above the pick up pipe) so they do not pay for idle inventory. They adjust the water level with alcohol. If they do a poor job you get water in the tank or over alcohol. If you wonder how you have melted fuel hoses, now you know. Impossible to prove.

Stick with stations that have service garages. Less likely to employ cashiers who double duty as fuel adjusters.

97dieseldriver
Although I only spent over 25 years of my life working for 3 different major oil companies operating thousands of service station, I have never heard or seen any of what you are talking about.
Water is kept at a minimum level and pumped out when it reaches a pre-determined level, depending on the size of the tank and the addition of alcohol is strictly forbidden.

BG44K is the best stuff money can buy....................

Not the gas!
 

If I read your original post correctly you state that the problem happened as you were pulling away from the service station. There is a considerable volume of fuel in your car's plumbing that would need to be burned through before the bad gas/water would reach the injectors. If it was several minutes after driving away from the station that the shudder started then I might consider bad gas, but immediately when pulling away from the pump? I just can't see the gas causing that.

Robert

Actually, the fuel pump delivers far more fuel to the injectors than is injected, and the excess is returned to the tank. It will not take long for fuel at the inlet strainer to travel through the inlet tubing to the pump, to the inector rail, and back to the tank.

Best Regards,
Jim

You got a load of water and sediments with your gas. Gasoline travels from refineries to terminals via pipelines. A refinery puts a barrel of gasoline in the pipe in Texas and can immedaitely take a barrel out in NY. All gasoline is essentially the same, varying only in octane. The differences are in the additive packages that are mixed in at the terminals. Some are better than others, but all have some detergents that keep injectors clean. If you have blended winter fuel that uses ethanol or other alcohols, then be advised that this is mixed at the refinery or intermediate points. If it flows through pipelines then you should understand that it is a powerful solvent and "hygroscopic," which means it will pick up all the moisture in the pipeline and will scrub out all the pipeline crud as it passes through on its way to the terminal/mixing point. This ends up in the station tanks and then in your tank.

Alcohol is also used as a gas dryer when normal condensation occurs in the fuel tank, or when suspended water settles from the gasoline and causes the stalling and mis-firing you described. Always carry some gas dryer in your trunk, Heet or another brand would be good. Also, the Techron contains alcohols which will allow the water to stay suspended in the gas, so, yes, it will help to remove the water as you noticed. Check the Techron bottle, it lists this as a benefit of its use. Try to avoid fueling at stations where the tanker is off-loading. This does stir up the crud.

Modern fuel injectors are finely made precision parts that can be easily fouled by contaminated fuels.

Finally, it may be wise to change your fuel filter: Add another bottle of alcohol and another of Techron and drive the contamination out by driving the car.

Like a bad meal, this too will pass.

FWIW,

230/8

Still don't think it's the gas
 

There's at least 4 ounces of fuel in the distributor and tubing to the injectors. This is after the fuel return line. To make the math easy lets say the car gets 20 mpg. So 128 ounces gets 20 miles, or 6.4 ounces per mile. So if he was 2/3 mile away from the fuel station when the problem started I'd believe it.

Good points, thank you. May I continue the math? When accelerating away from the station, I'd expect less economy, maybe 10 mpg or less until he was up to speed, so it could be a bit less than the 2/3 mile. With a heavy foot, maybe half of that, 2/6 or 1/3 of a mile, not including any fuel added by idling until pull away? Not quite immediate, but closer to it...

Best Regards,
Jim

97diesel and 230/8 are both correct in their desc. of fuel delivery/sales practices -though most people just do not realize what goes on. The marketing people from he various companies are selling the name, and the credit card. They are not selling their "brand" of fuel. So, you really never know what it is that you are buying when it comes to gasoline. Even rhe most "honest" of station owners will, occasionally, buy a known lesser-grade of fuel and sell it at the most markup that he can get. The station owners are not the ones making money on fuel in the last 15 years that I have seen the business. The profit goes to the oil jobbers, brand name holder, and the inflated taxes.

easiest way to check how "good" the gas is to to determine how long it takes to fill up. gas stations with slow pumps have old/ clogged filters. faster fillups mean the filters are changed more frequently.

I should add that the car was RUNNING at idle while I filled it up. This would undoubtedly account for the rapid reaction.

All theorizing aside, I wanted to bump this thread because the problem appears to have returned. This time it just started occurring after I got into the car to drive home from work. And I did not fill the car up that day (several days ago). The tank was about 1/2 full. And just when I thought the problem was gone.

Same symptoms - at idle in D, occasional massive jerk that feels as if it would kill the car if it continued - but it doesn't. It's the weirdest thing. It's not like an ignition misfire, more like someone flashed the ignition key to the "off" position for a fraction of a second and then turned it back to "run." And yet the car never dies. When the car is first started and this is occurring, putting it into gear will kill it. It only stays alive once the car is hot. But only sometimes. Other times, it doesn't occur at all, even at a cold start. I just put it in gear cold this morning and backed out of the garage and driveway with no problems. It only started the jerk / shudder about 20 minutes into my drive. I should also mention that at speed (i.e. 5 mph and up) the problem is not noticeable, if it is occurring at all.

Can anyone please provide suggestions on what to look for?

The cap/rotor/wires/plugs and air filter were replaced last September, roughly 15K miles ago. I used all OEM parts. So I don't suspect them. What could cause this to just start happening one day? Was the occurrence at fillup just a coincidence?

I had a Ford station wagon with a clogged fuel filter once, and it behaved differently - loss of power at mid to higher speeds, going up hills, etc. but at idle the problem was not apparent (probably because clogged filters limit maximum volume throughput?). Anyway, I don't suspect the fuel filter.

Should I try running a couple cans of Heet through there when the tank is almost empty?

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

It's a shame you still have this problem. But, I would not abandon the belief that fuel contaminants are causing your trouble, yet. I would add some Techron, toss in a bottle of Heet and drive. If you note a positive benefit from this as you drive, then you are likely looking at a recurrent contamination problem and should change gas stations. Also, if you are mechanically inclined, look at the plugs, check your electrical connectors for corrosion and tight fit, do all those cheap check-outs that help rule out little glitches.

I once owned a nice Toyota Corolla FX16 that was a wonderful car (wish I still had it). However, during the winter (lived in Colorado) it became a little snot to drive. Bucking and snorting all the time. We had to use the alcohol blended gas after November until March and every year between November and March the car bucked and stalled and was miserable to drive because the alcohol blend carried so much crud and water into the fuel system. Once Spring was sprung everything returned to normal, the car ran fine again and gas mileage went back to normal. During the deep parts of winter we would get some warm days, also regular as clockwork, in January. On those days the car was the most rotten little beast on the road because the fuel was contaminated and also was vaporizing so fast (higher temps) it would stall every time I let out the clutch.

Just a thought, hope it helps,

230/8

Techron and your average "cleaners" are little better than snake oil.....

Dump a can of BG44K in the tank.....it costs about $15 a can, but it works....something that the cheaper ones barely do.

Added Heet to the Tank
 

OK, my tank was nearly empty (light was on for about 5 miles) so at lunch time I got a bottle of Heet and threw it in there, then added 5 gallons of gas. The Heet bottle says it treats up to 10 gallons, so I should be OK. On the way back to the office, it still did the occasional jerk, but I don't expect the Heet to work immediately (if at all, depending on the cause). I'll drive this tank empty and report back if there is any improvement.

Interestingly, I had to go to WalMart to get the Heet, since the gas station was out of it. But the station attendant told me that if I couldn't find Heet, I could just use a capful of isopropyl alcohol and it would be just as good. Anyone know if that's accurate?

Yes, you can use it without concern. There are two types of gas dryer out there, one uses methyl alcohol and the other is isopropyl. Of the two the isopropyl alcohol version is usually the most costly. I'd get it at the pharmacy section of wallyworld where it is dirt cheap, and try to get the 100% strength. The most common is 70% which means it is diluted with 30% water.

230/8

All alcohols act as a co-solvent that allows water to mix with gasoline rather than separating out and dropping the to bottom of the tank.

The trouble with most store-bought alcohols is that they already have water in them. Read the label. If it's 80 percent isopropyl alcohol, it already has 20 percent water, so you're better off using a product that has little or no water in it. Heet is mostly alcohol, and it should be "dry" (read the label).

Oxygenated fuel already has 5-10 percent by volume ethanol, so any water will have a greater propensity to dissolve into the solution rather than separating out. In CA we have oxygenated fuel year-round. In many parts of the country oxygenated fuel is only supplied during the winter months.

Duke

Important Question: Does it seem to be worse if the car has been sitting for two days?

I'd inspect the wires, cap, rotor, coil, etc for a loose connection. Trace the wire from the cap to the coil for shorts. I could see how a sloppy installation of this wire 15k ago would begin to cause problems if the insulation was getting scraped off. And the symptom could be the bucking too, since all cylinders would be momentarily effected and the buck would move the shorting wire.

I really doubt it's any of those since they are all nearly new, but you never know. I'll check and report back.

I threw a couple bottles of Heet in there and filled up. Overall, the car *seems* to idle more smoothly, but I still get the occasional jerk and the car will still die backing out of a parking space or the garage if it isn't warmed up for a few minutes first.

I'm beginning to think my whole theory of this being related to fuel system is not correct. The occurrence at time of fillup may have just been a coincidence. I will be doing a full inspection sometime in the next week; hopefully I'll find something obvious.