Does any one still take pride in doing things right?
 

By anyone - I mean specifically shops -

I have noticed this trend of half @$$ work quality increasing over the years, but it seems in the last year my experience with auto repair places, stereo shops, etc has gone from not that great to totally unacceptable.

I am not sure why it is like this, but I really have to say as I go through and upgrade my rides that if I can do it, I will. I think that I let my own fear of screwing things up stop me from attempting to fix or repair things, even know I may have instructions or support from this form. What I have learned is that shops always screw something up so, I am thinking that it is always in our (my) best interest to try to DYI first.

Case in point -

This past weekend I took my car to a somewhat reputable stereo shop in Hayward. These folks are pretty big compared to some of the other shops around. My request was pretty simple I thought, install a new head unit and rear speakers (that I supplied) new front speakers (purchased from them) and rewire the system to bypass the fader switch on the console. I also made sure to let them know that I wanted the power antenna to work either when the stereo was on, or if that couldn’t be done than at least make it so the antenna switch on the dash was functional.

First thing I noticed when I picked it up was a non op antenna. Great – now I have to schedule a repair appointment.

Next thing I noticed was that the rear speakers sounded like crap. They basically sound like they are under a couple inches of mud. When I removed the speaker cover I could see that they mis-drilled the holes so in the event it was the speakers that are the culprit for the poor sound quality (I bet not the case), returning them is now out of the question.

And finally the real kicker they totally f---ed up my console window switch for the drivers side window. I noticed this lovely surprise when I was coming into work this morning. The switch basically fell apart on me while I was driving. Fortunately I only had the rear window down – so I was able to use the switch on the door to get it up.

Not only am I ticked off at having to go through the hassle of bringing it back to these hacks, I have to wonder if they will take ownership for their errors and fix the window switch… The other question is will they even know how to do it?

What I am wondering is if this is repairable or if it is shot and a new switch needed. If a new switch is needed who ends up eating the cost for this? I mean they broke it – there is no question about it, but can I prove it? No – I suppose not.

As for the fate of my existing switch – basically the silver trim piece has come loose and the buttons are just kind of floating around in there not making contact or really doing much of anything.

I don’t know what to do at this point. All I know is that with my luck now that I am having window problems I can safely bet that our winter season will be over.

Should I just order a new (used) switch or try and score one from the junkyard or just leave these people to fix it?
If I end up doing (or paying for) the repair, do I just eat the cost? Do I bill them? Do I have any recourse as far as being compensated for my time or expense?
By drilling new holes in the speaker baskets did they screw the speakers up? Are they responsible for replacing them now if it turns out the speakers are bad?

I understand that there are no simple answers to these some of these questions – This thread is as much a rant as it is looking for answers.

I wonder if others here have had similar experiences
a) With shops breaking stuff
b) Getting shops to make good on fixing what they broke, or experiences of using legal means to be compensated from shops.

Any feedback, advice, or answers about my switch question are appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott

People's Court...
 

Pay a visit to Judge Judy if you can't get it resolved. I think shoddy workmanship is usually a sign that the owner isn't present or the people they hire are inexperienced.

Yeah, like I'm going to let a 17 year old kid who's working a summer job at a car stereo shop work on my car. Nah go happin'!

lofat:

The problems you describe are not limited to the repair industry, but virtually all industries in the U. S.

Turn out the lights, the party is over.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune.

About a year ago I installed an Alpine stereo and replaced all four speakers. It was installed to function exactly like you described you wanted yours to function. It works beautifully.

Because I too can find no one capable of doing good work, I did the work myself. Whatever I might lack in knowledge or experience, I make up for BECAUSE I CARE. "Good Enough" is not acceptable. I want it done right; doesn't have to be perfect but has to be right.

It has been years since anyone besides me did any work on my automobiles. Unfortunately, it has gotten like they say, "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself."

We used to have craftsmen. Now we have hacks. And not just in the auto industry...but everywhere. As the prices continue to rise, the quality continues to fall.

Oh yes, my favorite part is when someone does crappy work and then gets mad because you're not happy with it.

A great slogan for today: "You'll like our work or we'll whip your ass!"

IMHO, of course.

I think the trend started in the DC area. Its probably because everyone wants their kids to become doctors and business executives. So very few people with talents go into the service industries. What you end up with is the bottom of the barrel, and it shows every time you want something worked on, delivered, cleaned, painted, etc.

I am an optimist though, maybe the new white-collar outsourcing thats going on will make people rethink their career choices and give service jobs a second look.

If I were you, I would just try to fix it all myself. Trace the wiring for the source of the bad sound. Get a used switch and pop it in. I wouldn't trust them to do it right the second time around, unless you actually get to meet the tech who will be working on it.

Sorry to hear about your problems. This is exactly the reasons I try to do my own work. If I can't fix something, then I would let someone else do it.

For "aftermarket" work, I would stay and watch the installation. It's a hassel but I've noticed if you're around watching them work, they'll take that extra step to do things right.

If I were you, I'd take the car back immediately and talk to the manager or owner. Don't take "NO" for an answer. Worst case scenerio take them to small claims court.

BTW, I had a friend who owned a tinting / customs shop. He used to hire HS kids or kids just out of HS. They were somewhat experienced with installing various things, but NONE of them were certified. He hired these kids because they were cheaper to keep on staff.

GL

jrmd01@yahoo.com

It is indeed getting worse, but it just goes along with the general sociatal decadence we are seeing in this country. Morality and everything that goes along with it is going out the window FAST.

I'm with jrmd. If you want a job done right, you do it yourself. I am at a point in my life where I can afford to have someone else do my car work, but that is not an option because it is too hard to find someone that you can trust and that won't screw it up.

The only person I know that will do it right is my brother in law who is a tech at an MB dealer, but it is about 120 miles away.

Have a great day,

well said!

That is why I DIY
 

After continuous dissatisfaction with numerous shops I do it all myself. I can screw it up as well as the next guy. The shops are trying to get your car out a fast as possibe and they really don't care very much. To some of us, the car is more than a car.

If I break something the shop could break it too. Either way you have to pay. Also, it is practically impossible to prove the shop broke, tore, stained, scratched or damaged anything on your car. I had a shop change an intake manifold gasket on my old Bonniville. They did not use fender pads and scratched up the fenders badly. They denied it. You just never know what they will screw up. Some things, like alignment and tire balance are best left to those with the ewuipment, but even then I am suspect. I found a good shop for those things but te rest is up to me.

You can believe this or not, but the primary focus in running our shop is to get the job done right and not have the customer come back because we missed something or screwed something up. Everyone who works for us is on hourly compensation, versus flat rate. A lot of that probably has to do with me being a poor manager, but I never want a tech looking at the clock, worrying that he might be losing money. Alas, it is always me who loses money, but that goes back to my managerial problems. There are a vast majority of people out there who don't know a wheel from a tire who depend on our expertise to safely and competently repair their vehicles, and I take this very seriously. In all honesty we have never, in 22 years, done what you could call a perfect job,,,, but I have never seen the factories make a perfect car either, so if we can do as good as the mega corporations, I can live with it. It is getting harder and harder to make a profit in this business and I am sure everyone is getting squeezed to the breaking point. This leads to shortcuts and incompetent and underpaid help, but I swear I would close my doors before I would ever cheat or shortcut a customer. Just my .02.

Decline of the American work ethic...
 

After viewing last night a Japanese website dedicated to SL500 (R129) enthusiasts, I realize that my car is more than just a car. It is a social statement (I'm a thousand-aire), a durable, engineering marvel, and a work of art. Personally, I would pick the R129 body style over the R230.

Right now "Dieter" needs some work done and I am a little sketchy on letting anybody get their hands on him. The indy shop I usually go to takes care of the mechanical side and I take care of the small stuff. I would go berserk if a shop cracked/scratched/chipped the center wood console if they had to replace a window/seat heater/mirror switch. They would probably deny it and still want payment for the repair.

If anybody finds a good indy MB repair shop, stick with 'em.

Newer cars are disposable...
 

I believe a big problem is that car manufacturers offer such appealing lease terms that at the end of 4 years, the car has been whooped, scheduled maintenance hasn't been done, most mechnical repairs are under warranty and upon return, the leasee is offered a new car to continue the cycle. Of course the dealer will make the car saleable with touch-ups here and there and sells/leases it again with an extended warranty. This is where it leaves indy shops in a bind because they have nothing left to repair except for beaters and the die-hard car owners automobile.

In a nutshell what we are all talking about are expectations:

We hire services to perform a requested repair/service and we do so with expectations, often either not communicated or only vaguely at best.

Almost EVERY repair these days, even plumbing is getting more complicated by the year.

I am now being overly communicative when I hire someone for something:

- "In other words, the toilet will stop leaking when you are done"?
- "My car will no longer stall and it will not shake at idle"?

It is amazing what people will tell you when we ask this questions. I have even hear: "Well I can say that this repair will fix your problem at all ...maybe or maybe not". (BTW, I then said after coming off the roof "Well what repair should I pay you for that WILL fix the problem"?

I was told: "You know, I might just not be the shop to do this in the first place". Amen!

We must be specific! If we are not, it means that whatever crappy work someone tries to get away with, then not only do we deserve what we get but it is a passive endorsement of further future crap slinging by the "service" providing individual/company.

We are responsible for our expectations being met and in ultimately solving a service/repair problem.

My $0.02.

Haasman

I would give you a chance, just because of your great attitude. Too bad it's so far to Pennsylvania.

Do you make house calls? :D

We take customers home all the time and occasionally go look at a job if the customer seems serious about getting it fixed at the shop. I would never put in the local paper what I said in the previous post as I hate telling everyone how good I think we are, but our reputation speaks for itself as we are swamped right now and a lot of other shops are slow. Hopefully our son will take over the business sooner rather than later, and I am confident that nothing will change as his work ethic is the same as mine and his honesty and attention to detail are unsurpassed.

PJG56 you are one of the few honest mechanics out there who probably has repeat customers. (There is a guy out in Los Angeles, California named Enrique who is also a pretty good and honest mechanic. He has lots of recommendations on this forum). The Mercedes Benz mechanic I go to is also pretty honest. I've been a repeat customer for the past 4 years for various items. My mom and uncle has been his customer for the past 15 years. My cousin is thinking of buying a Mercedes and I will make sure he brings his car to this mechanic if he ever has any problems.

I applaud you for your honesty. Too bad there aren't more people like you around in the repair business.

Pride and honor is slowly slipping away in business....nowadays it's all about the money.

Very interesting thread. I believe business schools may somewhat be to blame here. They emphasize creating good processes to leverage the cheapest resources possible. The theory is if you are a smart manager you should be able to create a process to deliver quality service/goods with the cheapest talent/supplies. It's all about price pressures and margins.

The good side is that people like us (discriminating eye for quality) learn to do things ourselves. The bad side is that if you do not manage your vendor you will get the lowest pass-able quality. If you don't want to do-it-yourself you need to know how to manage your vendor.

I'm looking for a good indy in the Bay Area. I want to have all the fluid flushed and I don't have a lift or the facilities to deal with brake fluid, tranny fluid, and hypoid oil. I've had sloppy experiences with most of the shops around town. Mechanics have replaced perfectly good O2 sensors when supposedly only diagnosing, put out-of-round tires on and blamed the alignment. The only guy I know that is decent is very expensive. So I can either pay top-dollar for a shop that uses quality talent ($105/hr) or figure out how to manage a shop that is using commodity labor ($65/hr). Sure, I can draw up the acceptance criteria and make the shop sign their side of the deal but is that what it's coming to? Do I really need to draw 2cc's of brake fluid and test that it is DOT 4 with zero contaminants? Do I need to draw off and test some tranny fluid from the transmission to ensure they actually flushed the system and drained the torque converter?

-Robert

Here's a good one. My TE had been showing a check engine light for over a year with a 5 code,,, EGR. Early this year I put spark plugs and wires in it because it had started to run rough. Turns out that the plugs, and I'm sure the wires, were original,,,, 103K. Since I changed them, the CE light has not come on. Now if I had taken it to a tech, and he diagnosed the problem as an EGR valve or pipe, and done the work, I would have paid happily and hoped the problem was gone. And he would have done the work with the best info he had at the time. Just being the Devils advocate here,,,, sometimes mistakes are made, but the intentions are completely honest.

Given the present climate of outsourcing, I've read that the future belongs to skilled trades; construction workers, electrical, HVAC, machine technicians. You can't outsource those jobs! The auto manufacturers are keenly aware of the crisis in skilled trades and are doing whatever they can to assure a future supply of quality technicians. If no one can repair their products, no one will buy them. Same with electronics. If the Yuan (chinese) currency gets revalued, the price of a lot of things will go up, possibly a lot - and I predict a renissance of repair, because it just won't be so easy to throw out stuff anymore.

Have you noticed all of the Spanish language printed and spoken in an auto store these days? Look around. These Mexicans seem to be among the only people who feel that self-sufficiency is important, and that don't mind getting their hands dirty. Most kids think that "radical modifications" to a car include screwing a fart can on the tailpipe and installing LED valve caps on the tires. People complain that the economy is bad and our standard of living is going down, while plunking $35 on a credit card to get an oil change (every 6000 miles, needed or not...). An able-bodied person should be able to do this in no more than an hour (including purchase, disposal, cleanup). If you aren't making $60K per year, it pays.

I had a friend who grew up in Detroit in the 60's and he told me that there were no tune-up shops there because everyone including his mother (seriously, HIS mother) could tune up their own car - because the big 3 gave literally hundreds of TONS of expensive equipment, motors, transmissions, entire cars, etc to the school system - a good investment - you could be ready to work the day you stepped foot on the factory floor!

Mechanics have never gotten any respect. That's why they are now called "automotive technicians".

Supposedly, really good engine diagnosticians at a dealer can make as much as high-end computer geeks! Somehow this word hasn't gotten out yet - as our society seems to respect only money. Consider this - would you rather have your daughter marry a "customer service representative" or a "car mechanic"? What if the car mechanic earns 2-3X as much money?

Not just "Mexicans" .... Hispanics. There are 40 countires south of the United States.

Haasman

No insult intended here. The vast majority of Hispanic people in my area are first or zeroeth (hmmm...) generation Mexican-Americans. I'm beginning to wonder if the real reason for the lax immigration policies is because those in the know are aware that the US would fall apart at this point without them.

A very big problem looms ahead in the service sector. A recent study I heard about lists the average age of a technician in this country as 50 years old. Looking around our shop, I would have to say that figure is right on the money. It is awfully tough to get a young person to want to plan a career in our type of work for a variety of reasons. The first is that it is work and it takes a high degree of skill and patience, and in the autobody sector we are regulated by what we can charge by the insurance companies. Where a mechanical shop can charge 80 to 90 dollars per hour, we are still at 40. I could go on but you can see the picture.

I have noticed that the majority of "bad quality" work of any type has been the responsibility of inexperienced and/or lazy workers. In the area of KY in which I live it seems like everyone wants something for nothing. We have one of the highest percentages (per capita) of law suits and people who are "on the dole". When I first moved in to this area I thought it was full of artists because people would say they "draw" when asked what they do for a living. I finally figured out they meant draw a check!

My parents just had their roof redone and, luckily, my dad checked it out before they left. They had put the roof vents on over the shingles without cutting a hole for the heat to escape from the attic. He complained about it and, I could not believe this, their answer was to take a hatchet and hack a hole in the roofing and then reinstall the vent! That is just laziness. They are in litigation now because my dad had the good common sense to get someone (a retired roofer) to check things out before they were paid. He found so many mistakes that it was pitiful. And the roof leaks.

Luckily, we do have an excellent independent here who knows what she is doing and knows Mercedes in and out (most models). She is not a bit afraid to tell you if she does not know the answer to a question - but she always finds the answer. She is fair and honest.

Well I agree and disagree.

I agree that setting expectations is important more so for the shop than for the owner of a vehicle especially for anything say, mechanical or electrical where there is some level of troubleshooting needed - Repair work basically. I don't think that it is too unreasonable of me to have the expectation that a shop will not damage or break thinks (such as my window controls) or to install a stereo and have it work reasonably well.

I also agree that as owners we shouldn't be ignorant about any type of service arrangement. With that said I think that shop owners and their sales/service people (who ever is communicating with the customer) have a responsibility, THE ultimate responsibility to set the right expectation. I do it, if I have a customer that is ordering several products together and I know that what they are trying to do wont work then I will let them know.

That really is the issue and summarizes why workmanship is going to hell in a hand basket - the responsibility has shifted and the public’s expectation is lower and many businesses capitalize on this.

I think that there is a difference between a customer that wants a simple stereo install with the expectation that their car won't be thrashed and the customer that goes in for an oil change then calls jiffy lube to complain that their muffler is still making that rattling sound.

I think that I have it right when I say (and generally speaking of course) that the public’s expectations have gone way down. People generally expect poor service and when they receive it they aren’t that surprised.

With all this said I have learned my lesson (still paying for it too). I will DIY as much as I can. If it doesn’t require specialized equipment then I will at least try… hell that is why I bought my 3 million and 2 piece craftsman tool set after all.

Thanks for all the feedback and responses.

I need to now go and sift through all these threads to see what I can find on how these console window switches impact other electrical functions in the car. This morning I realized that I had no gauge lights on the dash.

The good news (I think) is that the Mrs. called to let me know one of my taillights was out – so I am suspecting that when I was screwing around with the window controls yesterday that I blew a fuse…. I hope. ;)

Cheers,
Scott

I've read all the posts and have noted many good points. I can see both sides of the fence. My career spans many decades. I was an electronic technician for 10 years. I was a California licensed real estate agent for a couple of years. I went back into the Navy on special assignment for two years as a recruiter. I then went to work at a Mercedes dealership as an apprentice. I have been a Mercedes mechanic for 30 years having run my own shop for most of that time. During my stint as a recruiter I worked with high school counselors and was apalled at the fact that they directed anyone with an academic ability away from the automotive field if they were interested. The students were told that they should go to college, because they were too smart to be dumb old mechanics. What they were telling these kids is that they only wanted stupid people working on their personal cars. Todays cars are very complex with multiplexed wiring systems, and require sophisticated equipment and people to diagnose the problems. There are not enough skilled people to perform these tasks because of attitudes of the past. The end result is incompettance, and the consumer pays for misdiagnosis. There are alot of shops out there that just change parts and don't have a clue about proper diagnosis.

Now on the other side there are many good shops out there, but many of you are cheap bastards or really can't afford quality professional work. Many of you will spend thousands on stereos and wheels, but don't want to spend the money for top quality work. You take your car to the cheapest place in town and ***** about the work. Many of you should be driving Toyotas, because you are out of your league driving a Mercedes. I'm not casting aspersions on Toyota, because I think they are fine automobiles. It is just that they seldom need repair. If you are fortunate enough to find a good MB repair facility that is honest and reasonable, cherish the relationship and remember you need them more than they need you. If you are working or retired, you count on that income to pay the bills and so does that shop.

I've said my piece so fire away with dual salvos if you must.


Peter

I wouldn't mind paying top dollar for top-quality work. Unfortunately, my experience has been that the biggest difference between low-cost and high-cost work is only that the high-cost work costs more. High-Cost does not necessarily equal High-Quality. Just look at the dealerships' service departments. Arrogance, high-prices, apathy and mediocrity. The high-priced shops can disappoint just as well as the shop that caters to the "cheap bastard". How much time and money and frustration should we expend on our quest for the elusive shop that does quality work?

Likewise, we can buy parts through this site (FastLane) or we can go to the dealership (or lots of other places) and pay more. The parts are the same. Would we say that someone who buys from FastLane is a "Cheap Bastard", too?

For me, it's easier all around to just do it myself, know it's done right, buy new tools with some of the money I save and enjoy a sense of satisfaction for a job well done.

Also, in my experience, it costs NO more to maintain a Mercedes-Benz than it does a Toyota. Years ago, maybe. But not these days. And I don't think Toyotas are more reliable. Show me a 200K-mile '90 or '91 Toyota that looks and runs as well as our two Mercedes. A fifteen-year-old Mercedes-Benz is a car you can be proud of. A fifteen-year-old Toyota? I don't think so.

And forgive me, but it's INCOMPETENCE, not "incompettance". To mis-spell that word makes one look, well, incompetent. With all due respect, of course.

Have a nice day.

“Cheap Bastard”? What an insult. I resemble that remark. Yes, I am cheap, but I am not a bastard! Maybe I am the one who should buy a used Toyota (or domestic).

All kidding aside, I think Mercedes (and BMW and others) are much more expensive to maintain than a lot of other (domestic) cars. (My friend sold his 4 cylinder Camry with over $200,000 miles and never had other than normal maintenance.) The exchange rate is killing us on the parts side because the Euro is so strong and the Yen isn’t doing too badly either. Also, the better shops are more expensive and I know some that charge more for Mercedes than other cars. One owner said “because of the special tools and training” he charges $90 instead of $60 per hour. Any shop can screw up and I think a dealer is more likely than a high quality independent shop to do so. A run-of –the mill shop is no place to take a Mercedes, or any car you really love. A local shop that did work on my Bonneville did not want to work on my Mercedes.

Old cars can have numerous and expensive problems. If you like to DIY you can save a fortune. If you can’t do your own work and don’t have the money to throw around, maybe you are better off buying a new Toyota than a used Mercedes. Another alternative is to buy one a few years old, and certified if possible. An old used car is a crap shoot, especially if it has a lot of miles. Don’t buy one just to save money. It can wind up costing you more. Often, those of us who are too attached to our cars spend more than salvage (or resale) value to keep their car running right. That is okay but not sound economics. The emotional factor is what gets us to spend the extra money. I have spent as much on parts as I paid for my SL and it still needs a lot. If I had professional service I would have spent another $10,000. Maybe I just bought a bad one. Yeah, I throw parts at the car but often, diagnosis is more than the part. EG: fuel pump relay or fuel injectors. It costs as much to test as to replace (old K-Jetronic). I guess I can afford to do so because I don’t have to justify the labor. But there were precious few parts that didn’t need replacement anyway. Sorry for the rambling…

A quick word to end it all...
 

I love my car and will keep it running at almost any cost or until it falls apart, stolen, wrecked, burned, or blows up. Yeah they're expensive to maintain but I didn't buy it to save money on repairs or for the great gas mileage. I bought it because it is a beautiful piece of machinery.

Brewtoo,

I'm elated that you only found one misspelled word in my three paragraphs. I don't use spell check, and I miss a word now and then. Since you seem to be more concerned about spelling and punctuation than anyone else on this board, I suggest you go back through my post and pick out run on sentences, verb tense violations, punctuation errors, parallelism, predicate nominitive and predicate adjective violations, etc. I guess a dumb mechanic like me can't possibly help you with your MB problems, because im just to stupid to figure things out. By the way that im should be captalized, because it is a personal pronoun and a conjunction. Also the first to should have another o.

Steve,

I appreciate your candor. I appologize for my outburst, but one of my hot buttons got pushed. There are many good professional mechanics out there that do a fine job and deserve respect. I can also see the frustation that comes from dealing with mediocre mechanics. I totally agree with your observations about cars and mechanics. All I can say is try to find the good ones by referral and not rely on advertisement. I notice that you have a Euro model. I would suggest dumping it for a U.S. version. I have to go now. I'll wait for Brewtoo's criticism. Maybe if I'm lucky he"ll debate me on the history of Rome, the Punic Wars, the Crimean War, the Civil War, the Cromagnin Man or something else I know a little about since I can't spell.

Peter

In my years in the service dept. or parts dept., I can honestly say that this problem is kind've two fold. Many blame that the service dept. pushes the tech's to get the job done as fast as humanly possible while still charging full length of time (according to ALLDATA's labor rates) to increase profits, but you have to remember that that service writers are being pushed by customers wanting stuff done last week. And you have to admit alot of people wait to take their vehicles in till its on its last leg.
As for stereo/tint shops, most of these guys are rip of artist, and like someone else mentioned these guys hire young kids with no experiance. Car stereo's are easy nowadays with the plug-n-play harnesses; also Crutchfield has some great tech dept. that they offer with their purchases. As for complex wiring or specility wiring I'd suggest an auto electrician, you pay alittle more per hour but its worth it...... :vbac47679

Grateful to pay for good work
 

I am definitely willing to pay top dollar to get quality work from a skilled mechanic. I think it is critically important to make it clear that we value good work. That goes for all trades, where skilled technicians are essential for a high-quality finished job. When I find a good carpenter, plumber, electrician, or auto mechanic, I make it a point to thank them and gratefully pay them for their professional work. Once you find good skilled labor, I think you have to reward them by acknowledging their skill and paying them appropriately.

That said, it can be frustrating when you can't find a proud skilled professional to complete the work that you need. I definitely don't take my car to just any shop. I only go to my local dealer, who really does seem to do a good job, and to one local independent shop with two owners that are both capable and honest. My independent mechanics do seem to be busy with more dilapidated older cars, whose owners are just trying to save a dollar or two, but they really are skilled mechanics.

I know I am not adding much to what has already been said, but I feel passionately about this subject. I truly appreciate the highly skilled people that help me with my home and with my car. I am very particular about things, so I can tell when things are done well. I happily spend the money I make doing my job to secure the skills of an expert. I figure I get paid to do what I do best and then I can pay others to do what they do best. Doing what I do isn't better than doing what they do, so I don't think I should be rich and they should be poor. They should make a good living, if they are good at their job.

I read the first few posts of this thread a few days ago. It took a boring Sunday morning to read the rest.

I doubt I can do much to add to Peter's reply, as it contains as much truth as any of the posts.

Many have touched on the reasons for the situation as it exists and many have stated that it isn''t exactly as it appears. I believe the problem is basic economics. The most basic problem is the way technitians are paid. The first problim is that there is great disparity in the qualifications necessary at different levels of repair. The guy doing water pumps just doesn't need the brains, training or tooling that a drivability diagnostician needs. The mechanism for pay in most shops leaves the water pump tech being paid more than the genious. Most shops pay by piece work "flatrate" (or flatrape as it is refered to in the industry). A tech doing a 3 hour waterpump in a hour and a half gets duble pay while the diagnostician on a hard case may spend half a day for an hour or less. Good shops realize that they need the genious so they keep them making atleast as much as the laborer. They do that a couple ways. One of them is to keep a ceratin portion of their work the easy well paid stuff. This reduces the shop's overall capability to do the tuff stuff and places a certain amount of it in the hands of the laborer.

If the industry paid the diagnostician a relative pay versus the laboroer, cars would cease to be professioanlly repaired. You think costs are high now. Would you wish diagnostics to do be done like medicine. Personally I'll wager the good techs already do a better job than medicine in instances atleast as taxing. Would you wish all the CYA that is passed to insurance companies to be included in car repair.

Would you pay for no results? I've got a Volvo at the shop sent to me by another shop. It has an intermittant problem. The other shop has tickets for over 1200 dollars of parts changing and I have over 6 hours of designing tests, installing equipment, and driving the car waiting for the event. I must just be stupid at this point as it isn't solved yet. Is anything I've done worth paying for? Do I keep trying? Who is going to pay me? If I never find anything and the problem still exists do I work for free..... ever see a doctor do that? Our prices are set by expectation! Do I set up a research team and fix the car, maybe a 5-10,000 dollar exercise if it were a government project (actually maybe I should say 50-100,000).

BTW, I threw in a few mis spelled words and grammatical errors for those of you who do your best work shuffling paper. They also camouflage the real errors, after all those of us who do honestly get things done have better things to do than spell check.

Ksing44,

I couldn't have said it better. You expressed my thoughts pretty well and particularly the part where you get paid well so why shoudn't others. I'm semi retired now and only have a few clients who have been with me for twenty or twenty five years. I can remember in years past when some people asked me if I could do the work for less like on medical doctor comes to mind. He asked if I could give him a break. He was tight on money, because he had heavy bills to pay. He then told me money was tight, because he had one son in law school and one on medical school. To my way of thinking, I just wanted what was coming to me so I could buy shoes so my kids could go to school. Then there are people who act like you just drove a stake through their heart when you tell them it is going to cost several hundred dollars to do needed repairs to the ride they have been flashing around. When you look in their trunk, you see shopping bags from the most expensive department stores in the Bay Area.I really love the people driving around with stop leak in the coolant, half the power windows not working, and A/C not functioning, but the've got $2000 worth of wheels and tires and an incredible sound system. I learned early on as to whom to work for and whom not.

On the other side of the coin, I can fully appreciate car owners frustation in trying to find an honest competent service facility. I don't believe that there are that many shops that are dishonest. I think the biggest problem lies in the fact that too many mechanics have little or no training and fail to read to keep up on technology. Since there are no licensing requirements in the industry, anyone can get a box of cheap tools together and start fixin on cars. As a result too many parts are changed to get to the problem when a proper diagnostic normally uncovers the one defective part. Car owners feel ripped off, because they think all those parts were changed to make a profit when in fact severl parts were changed until the mechanic stumbled onto the right one. I think the real artist in this scenario is the guy who explains the need for all the parts to the car owner. :D As I stated in an earlier post, a good deal of the blame lies with high school counselers. Any student taking algebra and chemistry is encouranged to go to college just to go to college. All the stanine level 2 and 3 students are encouraged to go to auto shop. I have a friend who has been teaching auto shop at a Bay Area high school for years. He says it is a zoo wher they keep the animals. It is sad to note that there are thousands of high school auto shops around this country where bright young students could have a career field which would allow them to buy their own home and enjoy a better life. Good mechanics never live under the cloud of corporate down sizing. I have a young friend that I mentor. He is a 30 year old mechanic and has just sold his small 2 bedroom home for $340,000 and buying a larger new home for $430,000. To me that is an awsome burden to take on if your job could be lost or moved. I hope my ramblings spark some interest in seeing the need to bring intelligent new blood to the industry.

Peter

One of the first things my old Toyota mechanic told me when I started using him was... "Things break, this car is ten years old and some or these bolts haven’t been turned since they were installed at the factory, I will be careful, but I'm not promising anything." He was a good guy. Honest and fair but he made mistakes.
We all make mistakes at our jobs no matter what we do. Sometimes our customers know about our mistakes and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they are reimbursed for our mistakes and sometimes they aren’t. There is a big difference between a crankcase filled with ATF and "they still can't figure out what’s wrong with my car".
A lot of people think they are paying to fix a stall in there car but that’s not what gets fixed. The "something" that needs fixed is the cause of the stall and unless that "something" is crystal clear (on fire...) the request is actually "please investigate, in the order you as a professional know to be the best, the possible causes of my symptom". A lot of service people know this and know that their clients do not the good ones take a minute to convey the nature of the service they are offering to the client in advance so there is no misunderstanding about the possible outcomes and costs. Lots of them don’t have direct access to the client or are too busy to take the time to communicate this clearly. In a way it is contrary to the making of the money. The best way to make a sale is not to say up front that this might cost $1,000.00+ and not fix anything. But it is essential to good customer service.
Ask me how I know. I have learned the hard way the past 15 years running a courier service in Pittsburgh. When I started out in this business I thought I knew my job better than my former bosses. I know now that I have more to learn than I ever thought possible back in those days, and I know a lot more now than I did then. Customers want to believe that you can do a job for a lower price and faster then their expectations. But if that’s not going to happen, or even if there is a possibility that’s not going to happen, they want to know it in advance of booking the job what the worst case scenario might be. Its not always easy to come right out and say just how badly something I do for a living might come out in the end. But it’s 10 times better than the alternative... Honesty and truth buy a thousand pardons in failure.
P.S If my car was butchered by the stereo guys like that I'd be pissed off to.

Certainly there are lots of mis-spelled words and grammatical errors posted, probably some of them mine!

My point was, here comes this guy who's calling people who complain about incompetent work(ers) "cheap bastards". Then, from his lofty perch he mis-spells the word "incompetence". Of all the words to mis-spell, under the circumstances! When we're taking a condescending position, it's best not to mis-spell words like "incompetence". It was funny. It was ironic, like something you'd see on Saturday Night Live or Lenno. I couldn't help but notice.

BTW, you'll notice that my pointing out that one mis-spelled word was only a tiny part of my entire response.

Beautiful wheels on your car. I have the same wheels which I bought from my son-in-law. The raschal did tell me that two of them are warped. I am looking for a shop in or near Concord, NC which can repair them. I got to get rid of this vibration. Can anyone tell me where to get this done. I also need a fresh set of lug bolts for all four wheels and two of the center caps.

Thank you

dan howard