R12 a/c service
 

Can't seem to find anyone to service my a/c with R-12 in the Greater Toronto area. They tell me it is now "illegal". Is R-12 still available in the US? If so, can someone suggest a competent & honest shop that will not take my arm off for R-12 service (preferably less than $50/lb)? I would prefer NOT to convert to R-134a.

My vehicle is a 1992 300E. a/c works fine except takes longer to cool. I think it just needs a recharge / topup.

US cities I can access easily and would be willing to drive up to 1 hr from these points...
Buffalo, NY
Pt.Huron / Flint / Saginaw, MI
Toledo, OH
South Bend, IN
Boston, MA
Dallas / Ft.Worth, TX

Thanks in advance,
ARVY
1992 300E (R-12)
1984 190D 2.2 (R-134a)

I've heard this story before - no R-12 in Canada.

If you can drive across the border to a near-by U. S. city, go for it.

I wonder if there's some U. S. law that would prohibit a U. S. tech from feeding R-12 into an auto with Canadian plates?

I don't remember reading that in the Macs manual that I read in preparation for the 609 certification, but there could be regional rules that I'm unaware of.

I suspect that one of our Canadian members can shed light on this.

If you do hire a shop on this side to "top it off", be prepared to pay big $$$.

What you pay for R-12 as a diyer mechanic and what you pay a shop here for it are 2 different things. A few weeks ago, I could by the 12 oz. cans for about $26-$27. 30 lbs. cyls. of course offer more economy of scale.

I've heard of shops charging $100 - $150 a lbs for R-12.

R-12
 

I just bought 4 cans of R-12 from the local Chevy dealer for $22 a can. Plenty available on eBay for about $20 a can, plus shipping.

EPA Test to get your own license to buy R12 legally in the US. Section 609 is the automotive section.

ive got the same problem but larger.i currently own 3 r12 benzs with inop a/c.r134 conversion is looking very probable now but i have some reservations after reading on this site

Have my EPA609 certification (used to live in Michigan) and bought some R12 from a guy on eBay a while ago. Go get your certification and have the R12 shipped to a border town (as you listed in your original post).

If you just need a bit, I have one can of R12 and I'm located in Oakville. I might be convinced to part with it if the price were right :D

Neal

I have 4 cars w r12 and got my 609 cert and bought a case of r12for $248 a case ppd. and then arranged with my local refrig guy to service the cars. no problems and the cars run nice and cold. Check if r12 will go across the border.

who knows the Canadian Customs people might be doing full body cavity searches these days.... :eek:

ebay
 

i just bought a can of freon stuff that was compatible with r12.

you can just ad it in... got it right off ebay..and says its legal

beware guys ! there is a lot of stuff being sold as r12 in the states with dubious origin and purity.check this link.http://www.autoacforum.com :)

There was a guy on ebay a few weeks ago selling tire inflator as R-12.

Familiarize yourself with the tops of R-134A cans. The top of an R134A can is distinctly different than an R-12 can. You'll see people on ebay selling R-134A cans that have been painted/labeled as R-12.

Larry Bible has some well-formed opinions as to why you should always seek out and use R12 to service your R12 system. And, if you live in a large market where R12 is available at competitive prices, and the climate requres you to use AC much of the time, and it needs to perform with maximum efficiency, his opinions should guide your decision on whether to convert over to 134a. That said, if your climate is fairly mild and your system is in pretty good shape and you could be satisfied with less than perfect efficiency when compared with R12 performance, then you might want to consider a conversion to 134a.

I did my old sedan two years ago using the most basic "EPA simplified method." This involved little more than removing the remaining R12 (not much, big leak) finding and fixing the leak, replacing the original dryer with a 134a compatible unit, charging with ester oil and 134a with a "conditioner," which I have no clue to what it did/does for my system. I did not flush out the old oil because I was persuaded that the two oils would not mix and the old mineral oil would simply migrate to the system low point where it would sit without causing any problems. The ester oil was billed as being OK with both mineral oil and the 134a-specific PAG oil. It's the PAG oil that apparantly is so harmful when mixed with mineral oil. That's what I was told, and so far, so good.

The results have been entirely satisfactory. My cooling is not noticably less efficient than before and I have observed no decline in cooling or other problems with any components in the system, so far. I was advised that my old hoses would leak the 134a, and other maladies were in my future. I've seen none of that. Many have cautioned that time will take its toll and I'm going to be disappointed eventually. Maybe so, but I have been happy so far. If I lived in Houston it might be different. Hundred degree heat and 98% humidity are entirely different matters and I suspect that a conversion would be far more problematic in those conditions. However, in Canada's milder summer climate I would expect the best chances for satisfactory results.

Finally, I have read that R12 is dropping in price and now competes favorably with 134a. So far I have seen no such thing, and this thread with $100-$150/pound prices would seem to bear that out. $150/pound for R12 (even $30/pound for license holders) is a far cry from $4/can for 134a at WalMart. Can anyone point me toward that cheap R12? I have a sweet 350SL that still uses it.

All that said, others will have different opinions and each should be considered with care when making a decision.

FWIW

230/8

230/8:

I too have not witnessed falling R-12 prices, at least not in cans. The 30 lb. cyl. may have come down some, but in my opinion, not that much. R-12 remains an expensive refrigerant.

refrigerantsales.com is a cheap as I've seen, excluding the deals on ebay that I would personally be very leary of.

has anyone considered the "autofrost"replacement for r12?from the test reports ive read this looks like a good option with no drawbacks other than slightly higher hi side pressure at high ambient temps(+100f) which we dont encounter ever here in southern ontario

Autofrost is a blend of many different refrigerants.

55% R-22
41% R-142b
4% isobutane

I vote for duracool. It is an HC refrigerant, made up from a blend of propane and butane. It cools as well as R-12 and actually uses a lower head pressure than R-12.

kestas ive considered the duracool option too but my vehicle is not exclusively non smoking ;)

It may cool well but its illegal most places due to flamability...and just how well will it carry the oil...my understanding was while Propane and Butane woudl function as a refridgerant it can't carry the oil needed to lubricate the pump.

apparently "autofrost" is r406a.it is a drop in replacement for r12 with no oil compatibility issues.

But who determined that....the manufacturer (who has every motive to stretch the truth) or respected ndependent sources (with no motive to stretch the truth)....

To riterate for the 100th time! All alternative refrigerants are either flammable or a blend. R406a is a blend. The problems with blends are; the components leak at different rates requiring COMPLETE removal in the case of a minor leak instead of topping off, also they have trouble circulating lubricants to keep your compressor alive.

Additionally for the 100th time, each one of these alternative refrigerants are supposed to be recovered just like 12 or 134. Have you ever seen a recovery machine setup for anything other than 134 or 12? I haven't. These machines are expensive and no one is going to have one set up for every possible refrigerant, plus the EPA does not allow machines to be changed around. The EPA also requires fittings specific to the refrigerant. Have you ever seen any 406a fittings? I haven't and probably never will.

For the life of me, I can't understand the fixation people have that keep them from buying a refrigerant (R12) because it costs $15 per pound. People routinely spend HUNDRED$ of dollars to convert so that they can save maybe $30 on refrigerant. I guess there are just that many people that flunked third grade math.

Have a great day,

s that is a very valid question.my info comes from independant test.linkyehttp://www.refrigerantsales.com/

LarryBible is one of our resident experts.....

Like I said....look who is making the claims...its a place with financial motive to make those claims...becasue they sell it...Its also illegal to use in most states.

Refridgerant costs for the right stuff are not high enough to justify using anything but the right stuff.

Also be very wary of venders hawking their wares......Like the snake oil salesman of yesteryear they have every motive to say anything it takes to sell every bit they have....

$4 R134?
 

R134 is more like $10 where I live. Have you actually seen it recently for $4 at WalMart?

Do you realize the cost to properly convert to R134 from R12 so that the system doesent disolve itself from the inside out from aacids formed within 2 years...is pricey and labor intensive.

And even a properly converted system will not cool as well on a 90 degree day as R12 will....There are more things to think about the just what the refrigerant costts...that is the cheap part of the equasion.

Yup, $4, on sale recently and now off sale the last time I looked. I expect it to get back down again as we get into hotter weather toward July and August.

230/8

$4 a can is big news. Where did you see it for that price?

R-134 price discussion

dollars are not the issue for me.no shop in canada will touch r12 system.they insist on evacuation and swap to r134 before any leaktesting or repair.i am simply looking for the best alternative.the law is very strict here on r12.

I just bought R12 for $14.06 per pound, not per 12 oz. can, but $14.06 per full pound. Most a/c's take a little over 2 pounds. You do the math.

If you can find any 134 for $4 per pound in the last four weeks, I'll bet it will be gone or the price higher the next time you go back there. If you think you might have a need for 134 you better latch onto it.

Anyone paying $150 per pound in todays market is one of those people that P.T. Barnham talked about.

Have a great day,

Larry is correct. Just saw Dupont Suva 12oz can 134a at Autozone for $10.99. My 16oz can of R12 was $14 (134a is more than R12!) Hey Larry my Autozones do not rent a/c vacuum pumps, just the mity vac types.

Hey folks either stay with R12 or go with R134a, anything else is snake oil!

A sucker is born every minute. :D



R12 is $12-15/lb on ebay if you look about. 134A was $11/12oz from Dupont four days ago.

Larry,

My R134a car is marginal above 95F. Have you ever seen someone flush PAG oil and R134a ; put conversion fittings, mineral oil and R-12 into the car?

Saw R134a in walmart last week $12.99/14oz can.

$525/30lbs=17.5 per # plus shipping. ALways buy in the winter- it's cheaper. I use to buy a 30# container in Jan/Feb and could sell it to a friends shop and make a few hundred dollars. That was about 5 years ago when R-12 prices were high.

Is R-12 still made in Mexico??

Michael

If dollars are not the issue then you might want to consider the conversion to r134a. If you travel in the Canadian country side and don't partake of the lower states. Then you want to make sure your car is setup for the environment you exist in (IE R12 is illegal and no one will work on it). Since R12 is illegal and the car will work, though marginally for Texas standards, The car should be fine for the Toronto area. If yo travel to the Florida Keys inthe summer then stay R12

Make sure they do the conversion correctly. Flush the lines and components. Replace the dryer and expansion valve if not R134a compatable and go for it.

I have done the R134A conversion in my 82 300TD. But with the parallell flow condensor. It works fine. if I were in Toronto I would really consider the conversion. Mercedes here in Texas will do it. Consider talking to them.

Dave

Thanks for all your replies and the ensuing discussion; it was very valuable reading for me. I am still leaning to do an R12 recharge on my 1992 300E. Since R12 is unavailable legally anywhere in Canada, kindly refer back to my original question regarding suggestions of honest techs in the US that will do R12 and won't charge me the dreaded $100/lb. I also want to avoid the instance on another thread where the tech said he was putting in R12 and quoted less than $50/lb but ended up putting Freeze 12 instead. The cities I can easily get to are:
Buffalo, NY
Pt.Huron / Flint / Saginaw, MI
Toledo, OH
South Bend, IN
Boston, MA
Dallas / Ft.Worth, TX

As Larry Bible said, (paraphrase) do the job properly with the proper ingredients. I fully agree!!

Thanks again for an informative discussion,
ARVY

samiam4,

You left out a VERY important step, evacuation. You MUST draw a vacuum long enough to remove the vast majority of moisture. If you don't it won't cool very well, but more importantly the remaining moisture will combine with the refrigerant to make an acid that will eat up the system from the inside out. Also for a converted system you should use Ester oil NOT PAG oil.

That said, I would NOT convert to 134 if you are in a warm climate.

Good luck,