Can a Jag replace a Benz?
 

I still haven't bought a new car yet. The more time I read and ask questions, the more I see how a used car from the 1990s that's out of warranty can be a handful with repairs. There is no Benz in my price range ($12,000-$14,000) that seems to be a safe bet. Either the car is last of the old generation (W124) of first of the new (W140). I will not buy a W140! So far, the top 2 cars on my list as of today are a 1996 BMW 740iL and a 1996 Lexus LS400. You can see from my earlier thread what I was looking at:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=120838&highlight=lexus

On the weekend, I passed by the Jag dealer and couldn't help from staring at a beautiful Black XJ they had. Considering that the 1998 and up generation is German designed with a ZF 5-speed automatic transmission with Bosch electronics and Japanese and Nippon parts, is it possible Jag finally got it right? Can a Jag be the car I choose over a Benz for the first time? What do you guys think? Are these cars an option or out of the question?


Here is one to look at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31847&item=4554459845&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Good luck with the Electrics/Electronics. :rolleyes:
My understanding is, they have improved in the last 4 or 5 years, since Ford " took charge ".
You may also want to price a few spare parts & maintenance items, just to compare.
Nice looking cars, always have been.
Just do your research. ;)

There is a dealer in Ontario that is well known. They seem to always have a large selection. You may know them:

http://www.birkshiremotors.com/2home.html

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/listings.aspx?vlotid=29033

Jaguar = Danger. My friend bought his dad´s 2000 XJR. this car had nothing but problems. Now with the transmission. He is looking at a $4000 repair and is ready to give up. If your price range is $ 14.000 get a W210. ( I just got a 1999 E 240 for $ 13.000- absolutely no problems) A Jag potentially can wreck your finances. Remember Lucas electronics. Lucas is the Lord of Darkness. Pretty car tough.
Good Luck,
usaustria

Jags
 

I think the jags are beautiful fast luxury cars. Howerver, the beauty of a Mercedes is that spares can be bought at a fairly reasonable cost from online vendors. I don't see many people selling cheaper parts for a jag. To my knowledge they are also not the most DIY friendly cars either.

For a used car, Jag has an excellent bang for buck rating but you should be able to get a W210 Mercedes within your price range.

I don't get too excited when I see a W210 for some reason. I have seen some of them that have a lot of rust which scares me. These are cars on Ebay in the US. The other thing is that some people say that the W210 is very reliable and other have had a lot of problems. It doesn't come accross to be a car as relaible as an LS400 for example, based upon what I've read. The Jag I don't have enough feedback to form an educated opinion yet. That's what I'm looking for.

I did find this though:

http://media.ford.com/news/section_news.cfm?make_id=95&section=80&change_jag_session=true

http://media.ford.com/news/index.cfm?make_id=95

It's the beauty of the car that got me going. The autolux connolly leather in the XJ8 VDP is the same a Rolls Royce leather and the lambswool footwell carpeting and all that wood...it's just beautiful, but maybe I should be more careful. I just don't want to fall into a trap.

The old joke was:
Why do British people like to drink warm beer?
Because their fridges were made by Lucas.

Thinngs have changes since those days. I thought I read somewhere that Lucas is actually a respected company now. Not sure though, and do these new Jags use Lucas anyway?

Jag Replacing Benz
 

Sure, if you want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire.

There will probably be almost as many opinions on your question as there are forum members :D

My choice would be the Lexus.

When it comes to Jags I'm kind of old fashioned. I like the older ones and wouldn't touch the newer ones. (Kind of like my philosophy about M-Bs.)
Through the years I've learned to get along with Mr. Lucas, at least in his earlier endeavors. The Lucas stuff I've encountered all worked surprisingly well as long as a reasonable amount of care was given. One big advantage has been the ability to take apart and repair all of the older Lucas electrics.

(But then, on the other hand, I'm used to putting a grease gun on 17 zerk fittings on the Healey every 1000 miles. Maybe I'm just nuts.)

Wes

I would also seriously consider buying an XJ8.

Yeah, I know there are people that have had problems with the cars, but I believe their experiences are merely anecdotal. The quality surveys say otherwise. Jaguar has routinely posted higher quality ratings than Mercedes at least since 1998-ish, maybe longer.

Ford/Delco took over the Jag electronics by the early 90's.

I had an earlier '92 XJS V-12 that was absolutely beautiful and luxurious...and expensive to maintain. Unloaded it for the SL we have now, which is draining my pockets right now for a $7 headlamp bulb and $30 washer pump! :D

That is my typical experience right now...I can always expect to add a couple of zeroes if I get the Jag part versus the MB part.

One year, a broken glove box lock was $120! Same design as my $11 VW lock...except it had to be imported from GB due to having to specially key the lock!

The endless climate control and lamba sensor issues is what made my finally get rid of it. Decided $6K of repairs with less than 45K miles on the vehicle was enough! :mad:

Stuff like that wears you down.

Some early year v-8s had nikasil cylinder liners that corroded with high sulphur US fuel. Better study up on that.

There's a forum called JagLovers or something similar that I posted to recently to try and get some help for my mother's car. The people on that site are helpful, but way off the number of DIYers on this board, so that even what I would consider simple questions are sometimes unanswered.

Try this site, too: motorcarsltd.com

My mom is 70 something and her XK8 convertible rear passenger window wouldn't roll up. The DEALER in Austin wanted $1400 for replacement of the motor/regulator and told her how lucky she was that they had one in stock. I almost hurt myself laughing when my Dad called to ask if that seemed right.

This was before the dealer checked fuses or anything else. So.

I did what I would do with my cars and got online, but as has been said, there aren't a lot of online parts sellers for recent year stuff. This window regulator was a dealer only thing from what I could tell.

I posted a message and found a regulator w/no motor from a recycler for $150 after a few days.

They are beautiful cars. They are not cheap to own. Be sure the engine was replaced if it was one with the cylinder problem.

lol :dancefool

I had a 1987.5 XJ6 and that one cost a pretty penny to maintain. Then I replaced it with a 1990 XJ6 and had nothing go wrong at all.

I guess I want a nice car and not the repairs which looks like it's a tall order these days. The good cars are old now and getting tired, the newer cars are breaking down just as much with carzy stupid electronic and quality control issues, and so leasing seems to be winning the vote for a lot of people. This new car that I buy may be the last if things keep going the way they are now and I may jump on the leasing idea and enjoy a warranty for a change.

Thanks for the links :) .

After reading your post, I made a few calls and found out that the Nikisil problem is public knowledge. I thought only BMW had the problem. Boy, maybe I might have to go back in time and consider buying a W123 or even a W114! What is more reliable that one of those cars?

http://juanfra.bravehost.com/fotoscoches/mercedes.htm

I have a lot of experiance with Jags, and mixed feelings about them. From what I know a 1997 XJ6 is the way to go if you want a cheap reliable driver.

1998-1999 XJ8's had iffy V8's and the upper timing chain's tend to snap. These need attention like every 80k miles. If you want an XJ8 buy a 2000 and up model.

I was cross shopping a Jag and MB when I was looking to get a newer car and frankly you can get a lot of Jag for the money and the new ones are pretty reliable. But parts cost tons more then MB's, for example if you get stuck with the Brembo brake option rotors are $300+ each. :eek: Jag parts prices will make your eyes water. Also Jag has never had the R&D money that MB has, I don't think engineering wise and fit and finish wise they are on the same level. MB is slightly better in that regard. For example if you look in the fender wells and how the rear window is put in on say a 98 XJ8 some of that stuff seems kind of cheesy. Compare to a 1998 S420, and well MB is a notch up. Interior wise Jag is ahead.

I know MB's better and am comfortable with them so I would pick a W140 over one. MB parts are pretty cheap and they are pretty simple to fix when they break. However I wouldn't turn a nice Jag down.

I cross shoped clean late 90's XJ8's against the same W140's. In my book the W140 is a better car. People have an irrational fear of them for some reason.


http://forums.jag-lovers.org/index.php3

As far as reliability goes, I would have to say the Lexus wins.

Having worked on and driven all three in discussion over the years, the Jag is right up there as far as quality and ride, infact I would have to say the Jag's ride is like no other, very impressive.

As far as the cost of maintenance (general maintenance), the Benz does fairly well, the Lexus parts can be expensive, as can those for the Jag.

I would suggest comparing the price on a few parts such as, water pump, eng drive belt/s, radiator, brake rotors/pads, headlight ass, window reg/motor ass, drive shaft flanges/uni joints and oil/air/fuel filters.

Ultimately the decision is yours, just remember that all cars have there own little problems and all can be expensive to repair.

Also insurance costs?

ozzy

Thank you for the very insightful writeup!
To answer your question regarding the W140....I'm strugling with the prices of W124 parts since I'm living in Canada and paying through the nose for everything, can you imagine if I had to had to do an evaporator core and ECU on a W140!

I haven't checked the insurance rates as of yet. That is on my list of things to do. I have been looking at so many cars and I haven't found a nice clean one yet. Either no service history, high mileage, not the colors I'm looking for, rust, etc... I'm just keeping my options open to more than one specific car and model so that I can buy something soon. Most people that have cars that are working very well don't sell them. That's what I've been noticing. Every car I have called about has some story and the dealers are out to lunch with their ridulous pricing. They rob the person on teh trade-in and push it out at above retail pricing hoping that some poor uninformed sucker will bite.

What is considered to be the most reliable W210 in the 1996-1998?

The most reliable would have to be the E300, turbo diesel.

Next would be the E320.

My choice would be the E300.

ozzy

The E300 looks like its the same as an E320, so I think an E300 can look like this from the outide is someone wanted to:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4555149920&category=6335&sspagename=WDVW

But from the inside what other differences are there compared to the E320? I noticed the seats in the E320 look much nicer for starters. Why would they do that :confused:.

It's all about marketing, same car but have different levels of luxury.

The E300 is aimed at the primary producer, who wants a benz but doesn't want all the luxury. He can fill it up on the farm, jump in with his muddy boots and so on. It also depends on options, most E300's I see are usually standard with limited options.

The E320 on the other hand, is aimed at the executive who wants all the gadgets and electrically operated equipment, most E320's are highly optioned.

So it all depends on what your needs are, if you want a very reliable, low cost to run and maintain and reasonably luxurious, then the E300 is it.

Or if you want more luxury and creature comforts, costs more to run and maintain and is very expensive to repair when electronics start to fail, then the E320 is it.

I hope i'm not putting you off, but it all depends on what your primary needs are.
ozzy

Thank you for your response. It's posts like your yours that help me learn. I never owned a diesel in my life, so I don't know them at all. Other than the disel badge on the trunk, glow plugs, slow acceleration, black smoke, plug hanging from engine compartment, I don't know much more.

Lino, from what I can gather, you are looking for a prestige car that is very reliable, easy to maintain, costs around $12,000 to $14,000 and is pleasing to the eye.

Personaly I would lean towards the Lexus. I actually pulled up at the lights this evening and what should pull up beside me? A black Lexus Ls 400, man it looked awesome.

When I laid my eyes on it, I immediately thought about you. The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking the Lexus is the car you're looking for.

As much as I believe the E300 would be the most reliable and cost effective, I don't think you would be happy with It's over all package. So the next most reliable car, but with more luxury and prestige would be a lexus.

The Japanese sure know how to build cars, and the Lexus is certainly the cream of the crop.

As with any car you plan on buying, make sure to have it checked over by a reputable pre-purchase inspector.

ozzy

:2thumbsup: :dancefool





You're right on! I already have cars that require attention all the time, so I do want one car that is less demanding and in that price range. I love the LS400 in black. I don't believe there is any other color that really catches my eye.The Greens, burgandy, golds and dull greys are not on the top of my list. The only dilemma is that my heart is set on a BMW 740 iL for the driving pleasure, performance, looks etc.. but logic tells me that the Leus will be more trouble free.

If you look at my other thread:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=120838&page=1&highlight=lexus

you can see them both in black. Even though the Lexus lacks a sporty personality compared to the BMW, one can change that. This car is a 1995-1997:

http://www.clublexus.com/gallery/dat...kazu-ucf21.jpg

You can also check this out:

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=7553&vf=1

At $155,350 it remains one-third cheaper than the equivalent Mercedes, a quarter less than a BMW 740 and even undercuts Jaguar's new Sovereign.


Please tell me this is a typo!
A Lexus LS400 for $155,350... This could not have happened!


You need to test drive 3 examples, the 740i, LS400, and E320

The dish on those wheels is larger than the width of the wheels on my 300E!!!

Prices are in Australian Dollars. They have high taxes.

If I drive the 740 now I will not drive the others. I'm trying to avoid getting near that car, because I know it will win me over.

If MB parts prices make you cringe Jag parts prices will give you heart burn! :D Evap core on a W140 isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be, a shop I know in NJ will do it for just over $2k. Or you can do it yourself over a long weekend for like $400.

Any high end car will have potential expensive issues that is just the nature of the beast. These cars cost $70k+ new. Most people that I know that have bought cars such as this new do not bat an eye at $3k a year maintaince or a $5k bill once in awhile. They just drop it off at the dealer or the shop they use and let them do what they want.

Buy what you want, none of these cars are a Camry or Sable so budget accordingly.

I still vote for a 1997 XJ6 or S420/320. W210's in general are pretty user friendly to drive and take care of.

So the BMW 740iL or the Lexus LS400 don't make the top of your list? Since you like the W140 S420/S320, which years do you prefer and why not a S500?

Thanks

Lino, the Lexus that caught my eye looked very similar to this.

I know a bunch of people that have owned or currantly own 5 and 7 BMW's. They have all been maintaince hogs, but are a blast to drive. I don't like BMW's interiors, so I would probably never buy one. My cousins 02 330CI looks like an Acura inside. If I was looking at a 7 I would look for a 735IL; my friend had one back in highschool. It was a 93 735IL that was a fun car and never really acted up much. Well until the belt broke and took out the $500 radiator. :rolleyes:

I find Lexus to be souless boring cars, they are not my thing. Also parts prices are real high.

With W140's newer is better. 97-99 seems to be the least troublesome. The S500 is fine they just have the active rear suspension the S420/320 are simpler. You can also get much more S320 for your money.

Buy what you want every car has its problems. Buy a 740IL if thats what you want.